Concerned neighbors delivered a petition to a top parks official Wednesday night in an effort to combat “an incredible increase of drug trafficking” at Bergen Place and Marvin’s Garden. “We have very heavy daily use of drinking, drugs and sexual behavior,” said one of the neighbors, who asked not to be identified. “It’s not a homeless issue, it is a crime issue,” said another, explaining that much of the drug dealing takes place in the early morning hours.
The petition, signed by 80 Ballard businesses and residents, urges the Department of Parks and Recreation to create an exclusion zone covering Bergen Place, Marvin’s Garden and Ballard Commons Park. Under the rule, police can ban anyone who commits a crime or violates a park rule from visiting that park as well as surrounding parks for 7 days.
The concerned neighbors delivered the petition to Christopher Williams, deputy superintendent of Seattle Parks and Recreation, moments after he spoke to the Ballard District Council about safety in city parks. Williams said his department is running a pilot program to staff rangers in downtown parks. “We think that rangers would be a good idea for parks all over Seattle,” Williams said, explaining the department intends to ask the city council for funding to expand it outside downtown. One ranger, Cyril Ishem, urged residents to “not be afraid to use the parks” and “constantly call police if you need to.”
Members of the community offered a variety of ideas to bring more people to the parks and discourage criminal activity: schedule regular events at Bergen Place, work with Old Ballard bars to bring live music to Marvin’s Garden, put up a live webcam, pipe in classical music and schedule regular meetings of a knitting club. Williams, meanwhile, promised to meet with a small group of community members to take a harder look at the issue.
February: Homeless “huge issue” at Bergen Place
Thank you, good citizens of Ballard. Very proactive and fair. Our parks should be safe and free of illegal activity. Parks should be a place where families aren't subjected to what they have been lately, it's simply been deplorable.
I would strongly urge that pressure be applied to the city council to ensure that the priority is funding for public safety, including the items in this proposal, or what we will see is continued and worsening problems with our open areas.
Don't let them off this time, tell them to pack up their stuff if they don't.
Thank you, Concerned Neighbors and Ballard Businesses !!! I appreciate your efforts to get our Ballard parks cleaned up.
Those are some great ideas. It's nice to see citizens step up to the plate to aid our authorities in an intelligent and respectful manner. That's the way a community should fuction.
It's certainly more productive than bickering on the internet.
Would piping classical music really work? Of course I wouldn't mind so long as it wasn't too loud, but it doesn't seem like that would keep people away.
As opposed to the drug trafficking, drinking, and sexual behavior that takes place on Ballard Ave? All things considered, wouldn't it be better to have the police dealing with violent crime?
All things considered, I'd want the police to deal with Ballard avenue, too.
Whereas I don't have a problem with either–I figure these things are signs of life, and busy streets are safe streets. There aren't enough police in Seattle–one of those government services that I keep hearing are of no value–and we have a really serious violent crime problem. So that's my priority.
agreed. what are deputy park sheriffs going to do to stop crime? cops have enough w/ shootings, stabbings and drinking/driving accidents. homeless smoking a doobie in the park seems harmless in comparison.
The way New York City fixed its serious violent crime problem was to crack down on *all* crimes, especially “nuisance crimes”. Their effort worked, and I think a similar effort here in Seattle would work as well (apparently Mark Sidran pushed for this in the '90s?). I found Danny Westneat's recent column an interesting perspective on this issue.
Just wanted to give the GS a big “thank you!” for covering meetings like this. I can't make it to many myself, and they don't seem to get covered in the newspapers. Your reporting is a boon to our community!
This is just a suave way for the new kind of Ballard condo-wearing yuppies to get rid of the only problem with thier new half-mil digs; what problem might you ask, well the homeless finding Ballard as a great place to commune. The homeless are right on about where to hang out too, the Seattle cop presence is almost nil, everything is flat, there are and abundance of squatter type locations, and some of the parks are ok to hang out in. Poeple don't be fooled by the wording here in this “news story” this is about gentrification and ridding the city of its socio-economically downcast citizens. There is no drug dealing going on here, its just what the aformentioned “condo-elite” have to say to make it sound like the homeless are a danger to the rest of us. Most of the homeless I see in the park are (sadly) alcoholics that leave the park shortly after nightfall, the rest kids from the Chai House–whom are sometimes homeless themselves (but by choice)–and the rest are just Ballardites hanging out. Poeple don't drive into Ballard to get Crack when its so readily avialable in Belltown. And, if the “concerned citizens” were refering to some other drug then they are just being silly. Don't believe it cause its in a webblog.
Either you have very selective vision or are just an idiot – there is a lot of drug-dealing in Ballard. Ask any of the volunteers who clean up Bergen Park about the increase in needles and mysterious packets of cellophane and foil. Check the port-a-potty by the check cashing place for same. Watch for crack deals at the alley entrance by Golden City. Or make a middle-of-the-night purchase on the steps and enclosed porch of the building behind the 7-11 on 17th. And you can always drug-shop the little park by the Sloop.
Condo-wearing Yuppie? No, I'm just someone who's been here for 20 years, just a renter, just doing the best I can with what I've got. My car is a little p.o.s. so I walk most everywhere I go in Ballard – and I see what I see.
And your reference to Belltown – when the City and the SPD cracked down on Belltown at the request of condo-owners and local businesses where do you think those street folks went? Yup – a 10-minute bus ride to Ballard.
Wake up – this petition is a good start.
One can buy crack in Belltown just about anytime, and easily. Ballard isn't like Belltown, at all. The homeless, dealers, etc. are still there in Belltown, not on the bus to Ballard. I don't see the motorhome size police unit EVER in Ballard, whereas it still is stopped in Belltown, red lights ablaze, and 2 blocks over are the evenings shadowy dealers staying at a distance, waiting for the police to leave. Where did you get the idea that Belltown's changed? Nothing's changed, just scared yuppies freaking out, so it looks just a little better with the “dog park”. Nothing, nothing has changed at all. When the Crocodile was empty you could buy crack right there. Now they're a block away-big change.
These people just don't understand that we love to be free!
work = genocide
This doesn't validate Briancandy's statement: “There is no drug dealing going on here, its just what the aformentioned “condo-elite” have to say to make it sound like the homeless are a danger to the rest of us.”
i am very happy to at least see folks attempting to make a difference. it may not be the perfect solution in everyones eyes, but, at least it is a beginning and at least these folks are really TRYING to take action and to put their ideas to work!
i hope it helps.
That's funny that the pic includes the actual Drug Dealer of that area in it (the guy in the red shirt sitting down). He's responsible for a lot of the dealing which attracts a lot of the transient addicts.
I'm sure you all have seen him before if you have spent any considerable amount of time on Ballard Ave. He's the fat Native American looking guy with his belly hanging out of the bottom of his shirt.
Oh please, spare us the 'yuppie' drivel. This isn't the 19080s anymore, you can put away the class envy. Creating safe streets and neighborhoods is also something poor people like you know.
Briancandy, you couldn't be more wrong in your assumptions about the type of people who filed this petition. Almost w/out exception, this group of folks include long term property and business owners in the Ballard core. And their reason for doing so is to aid the police in providing a safe neighborhood for all. But if you want to piss on their efforts, go right ahead. It won't phase my support.
I think the thing to remember (and this point was made by the Parks official) is that the police allocate resources based on actual reported events (i.e. calls to the police, incidents, arrests, etc). So while you might think it's obvious that there's bad behavior going on in a park, it's important to call it in.
The phone call you make today probably won't make a big difference immediately, but it could make a difference next year if this area shows up with a high number of incidents.
We don't have the luxury of picking and choosing what crimes that we can tolerate, and still be a vibrant and safe neighborhood. The level of both 'nuisance' and 'serious' crime is unacceptable at this time. And as Mondoman correctly stated, that's exactly how New York reclaimed their city streets, zero tolerance of all crime. I'd hazard a guess that it would be easier still for us to do the same. And whether or not you believe there's good reason to do so, the majority of folks here are tired of what's being tolerated, condoned, or ignored. It's time to do the right thing.
My experience, is that their presence alone will have a positive effect on the safety of parks. And the change in activity would be sudden, and beneficial. Sure, for those of us who want to see things improve. I can't even begin to understand, or speak about what goes through the rest of your heads.
Boredbrown–do you mean this won't 'faze' your support or were you actually intending on doing it in spaced intervals?
Thanks for permission to disbelieve a webblog, I'll start with yours. Unbelievable.
And I think that 'yuppies' are the least of Ballard's problems. imho.
I work right next to Bergen Park every day. And I walk extensively through the neighborhood every day- Freddie's to the Locks, Ballard Ave., to the Library and Post Office. So I can identify by sight most of the street drunks and hard core addicts. It's pretty easy as the main characters have been here for years.
Bergen Park- the meth heads and most of the street drunks have moved on with the new neighborhood presence. The meth heads have spread out all over Ballard again. The drunks have moved around also.
Bergen Park is totally quiet now except for the kids skateboarding and hanging out, these kids were never a problem.
Marvin Gardens is suprisingly drunk free, as this little park by the Bell Tower has always been a street drunk hangout for the last several years.
So that leaves the Golden City to 7-11 alley and the little park by the Sloop as main congregation points for the homeless drunks. The crack and meth heads hang mostly around Golden City in any numbers.
The drunks for several years stayed out of Bergen Park in large numbers. It is just this winter that they took over the park at all hours. But over a month ago, police, neighbors, and the kids who hang out in the park told them to scoot. Almost all of the local drunks are staying away.
The meth and crack heads are gone too. But now I see them spread out all over the neighborhood making deals just like the last several years. They are pretty mobile.
So it looks like the big scare is over, a big thanks to all the neighbors, businesses, and police to make Bergen Park more family friendly. And thanks to all the young, semi-employed kids and students, remarkably most of them are attending community college, they have been the eyes and ears.
Good work.
Ballard Norwegian Businessman
Bruno,
The guy in the picture is an inveterate hustler and drunk. He sells the Real Change newspaper too. But he isn't a drug dealer, at least I never see him hanging out with the white powder and rock folks. He's obnoxious, but benign. He has been on the streets for years.
If you really have a clue about the makeup of the drug-heads you would notice that overall they are pretty skinny any keep moving. The junkies don't sit on park benches for hours drinking, that's not their m.o., the junkies are the twitchy ones, that are always walking fast or bouncing around looking for the next score. They don't sit all day likes chronic alcoholics.
I get to watch them all, all day long.
Ballard Norwegian Businessman
Ha Ha. Thanks for pointing out my Achilles heel…spelling and grammar.
you have clearly never seen the effects of real genocide in person. lucky you.
Thanks again My Ballard for some good community reporting and news updates.
and I'm soooo glad about the new comment rules!
a few of you have mentioned the park by the sloop.
do you mean that empty lot? there's not really a park there, is there?
I see more and more folks behind Stone Gardens. They hang out right by the tracks (on the wrong side, I betcha!)
It's well documented that the crime rate was dropping to begin with–the NYC mayor and police just took credit. (“Shoot at anything that moves, claim anything that falls.)
Would you accept a tax increase to fund an expanded police force? (Even if the good citizens of Washington State would allow it.) There aren't enough police, and there's no getting around it. But even with the funding there would still be a problem: outlawing drug use does not stop drug abuse, even with the strongest enforcement, and outlawing drug use adds a violence problem to a drug abuse problem.
BTW, that NYC claim is false; crime was dropping anyway, for reasons that are still being debated.
In short, no. It would take a major change in how our current revenues are utilized before I would support giving them another dollar. We already outlaw everything that is the problem here, so the issue is enforcement. The issue of not enough cops, that's a bit debatable, I see it more as a lack of community involvement, and hopefully, that's changing.
The police are only inclined to enforce what we demand them to enforce. Yeah, and I'm open to learn more about, and learn more from what New York has done, as opposed to, let's say, Seattle. That clearly isn't working.
The small grassy area (in front of the sub station) next to The Sloop is a main camp ground and drinking area. I walk by it daily about 6:00 – 6:30 AM and it's always a popular spot for the scum.
I was living in NYC on and off throughout that era, and yes the crime rate was dropping already and policing was getting better through changes in the structure of the NYPD, but the crackdown on all crime did make a big difference. The change in attitude was obvious and the city went from being a place where you just accepted that eventually your car window was going to get smashed to one where it was rare. Once the perception of NYC being a place where you could get away with petty crimes changed to one where people knew that the cops wouldn't look the other way a lot of the small time hoods and kids dabbling with petty crimes quit.
New York has cops standing on just about every street corner in the city, particularly in neighborhoods where they were cracking down (like Times Square).
New York City residents also pay an income tax to the city at around a 3% rate.
Do you want that?
Just cause he's not skinny doesn't mean he is not the dealer. I have seen him with my own eyes. Go in and ask the owner of Thai Ku. They catch him all the time. I work on Ballard Ave and see this ALL THE TIME. And he is NEVER drinking. He's posted up waiting for the next sell.
It seems that you are the one mistaken here. He is a big source of the transition between drunks to crack heads/meth addicts.
Dude you don't know what you are talking about. Just wait till the sun comes out again and we'll see how “most of the meth heads and most of the street drunks have moved on with the new neighborhood presence.”
Just because you take a stroll through ballard occasionally doesn't mean your opinion is the truth.
We don't need cops on every corner, or a sales tax. We need folks to wake up, elect fiscally responsible leaders, require the enforcement by police. And quit allowing the decimation of our neighborhood.
I never imagined that it would be so hard to understand…
Thanks for your time.
Ummm he said he works right there. That means Ballard Norwegian Businessman sees this 5 days a week, or more given how much business owners have to work. I see the same things he does, so I think it may be fact and not simply opinion.
Drunks sit, tweakers can't sit still. This is as old as when speed was the scourge of the '60's. Drunks and heroin junkies pass out. Stimulants amp people up, central nervous system depressants slow them down.
Belltown is way, way more beset by these issues than Ballard. Way worse there!
I thought that it was already a law that people could be banned from city parks if caught engaging in illegal activity? Or is that only on a park by park basis? Or is there not even a law like that in Seattle?
When the sun comes out the grassy patch next to the Sloop becomes what is locally know in West Ballard as “City Hall or Town Hall” with our non-elected “city council”. Everyone associated, owning , and working at the Sloop despises what the grassy patch has become but they can't do a thing about it. I personally know that the bartenders frequently go out a yell at the scum for buying liquor for our local teens who hang out in the VFW parking lot to ask the homeless to buy them booze from the liquor store. I have witnessed this on several occasions myself. I have seen them threaten to call the cops and the kids parents and all the homeless and youth do is laugh at them and tell them to f*** off. These are your kids folks. I have seen little 15 and 16 year old girls walk off into the bushes with homeless men to get their booze. Maybe we should ask Charlie to set up a live night vision web cam pointed at the lot. Maybe that will drive them away. I know that service is refused to all of the homeless drunks at the Sloop. They try to come in to use the restrooms for whatever purpose but are stopped at the door. The reason these scum bags hang out there is because no one has run them off yet and it's close to a store for beer and a liquor store for booze. You're also kidding yourselves if you don't think they do drugs there too.
Would you expect our “fiscally responsible leaders” to pull cops out of a hat? Maybe pay them with goodwill and say “heckuva job”?
Washington is one of the most tax-friendly states in the nation (especially if you're wealthy), and this is the price we pay. Our police force is understaffed. I agree that we don't need a cop on every corner, but you expressed interest in New York's methods, and that is exactly what they did. It wasn't cheap.
“Why don't you wish in one hand, and shit in the other. See which one fills up first. ” – Bad Santa
Yes. I would pay a bit more in taxes if it meant more cops on the street. It is well documented that Seattle's police force has not grown in decades while the population has doubled.
What is false about the NYPD and crime rates? Dinkins increased the number of police and towards the end of his term was able to break down the walls between Transit Cops, Housing Cops, etc so that they could be more effective as a total police force. Guiliani, who I have no love for BTW, then sent out the word that the NYPD would have his full support to stop all nuisance crimes from squeegee guys to car prowlers to anyone who even looked like they might try something. Say what you will about the crackdown and the abuses, which I can't really say I agree with, but the crime rate and the perception of what you could get away with went way down.
Some of the people that I grew up with weren't exactly model citizens and they were the first to tell you that the city had changed and they weren't going to get away with the BS that they were brazenly doing just a couple years before. Did all crime magically stop? No, of course not, but the attitude that you could get away with it did and that went a long way to keeping the petty crimes from happening. It also meant that the citizens could feel better about living in the city and more of them did stay there and more people came in and shopped and thus revenues went up to pay for the extra police.
I have to wonder how many of the suburbanites around Seattle don't come in as much because they fear the crackheads and zombies roaming around Belltown? I have to think twice about where I'll park my car and where I'm willing to go and I lived through the NYC of the '80s where you had to put up 'NO RADIO' signs on your car so you wouldn't get your windows smashed.
“Washington is one of the most tax-friendly states in the nation (especially if you're wealthy)”
Actually not exactly true. Though we do approve more tax increases on the ballot, WA actually has a very regressive tax structure in that we don't have an income tax, but a sales tax and property tax.
I can tell you that everyone I know pays a heck of a lot more in property taxes on the East Coast and everyone BUT THE WEALTHY pay a higher percentage of their income in sales tax.
This is definitley a postive start to sending a message as to what our community will or will not tolerate. I think it is important to realize that although we may not have the resources available from the police department, or stats to convince other community members that things have definitley gotten out of hand, that keep a low tolerance for crime and setting the bar high for what we want ballard to be in a good focus!
Regressive tax structure = friendly for the wealthy
I think we're saying the same thing.
But, even with our regressive tax structure, poor people pay a lot less in taxes in WA than, say, in CA. CA has a slightly lower sales tax than WA(7.25% minimum), but adds a 9% income tax if you make more than $40K per year. CA does have a lower property tax rate than WA, but that doesn't really help poor people, and property values there are so inflated that they end up paying about what we do per household anyway.
Most populous states in the NE also have income tax, sales tax, and property tax.
I have two words:
Deer Repellent
Spray some of that around the grassy patch next to The Sloop and NO ONE will be hanging out there. Unless their noses don't work anyway.
8th highest taxed population in the nation…
42nd on the happiness index.
I rest my case, besides this thread is being squeezed ;-)
I'm one of those that won't, (go to the C.D.) mostly, because I'd have to deal with what I see, and then you'd see some obituary about me. (not that you'd know it was me, but momma sure would)
Reference?
According to this link from the Tax Foundation, our average state-local tax burden is 8.9% compared with the national average of 9.7%. Our tax burden ranks 35th.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/486.html
that's federal, not local.
I haven't seen any aspect of them that actually works. ;-)
If we could get the meth addicts to switch to heroin, then most of these problems would pretty much work themselves out.
HaHaHa! Do you honestly think that these smelly drunks who piss and sh** themselves on regular basis care about smell. It would probably smell comforting to them.
That is state-local tax burden, not federal. Do you have a link which shows we're the 8th highest taxed?
seriously, I'm looking for it, again, but it was less than two weeks ago that I read it, sorry, don't have much time, again.
here it is.
both link stories, 8th, and 42th.
http://www.mynorthwest.com/?nid=76&sid=153387
Thanks m, will you be my ghost writer, from now on?
Briancandy is wrong
mondoman, where have you been all my life. i have too tried to make this point. now watch the opposition crawl out of their holes to strike.
Ballard Norwegian Businessman,
You are correct in most respects about the guy in the picture, except that several of us in the district have seen him deal drugs. He and one other person are the two main sources for the skinny, twitchy users you describe. You may also notice that, occasionally, a small group of teenage skateboarders hang out with him into the late hours of the night (school night). Hmmm, I wonder what they are doing?
still
I've tried the Deer Repellent trick in other places in an attempt to disrupt loitering and the human trash that participates in it. It's incredibly effective. It gets the attention of even the smelliest lowlife.
I'm guessing it's youth ministry, trying to bring him around?
Please don't say I'm wrong, couldn't take it :-(
I work right across the street from the belltower. I have SEEN HIM WITH MY OWN EYES DEALING DRUGS! JUST BECAUSE HE SITS DOESN'T MEAN HE IS NOT CONTRIBUTING TO THE METH PROBLEM! This whole petition was started by the owners of ThaiKu who see people (this guy specifically in the picture in red) dealing drugs outside of their business.
So just because I see it, does that make what I say fact?
The funny thing about the homelessness issue is that it is our issue, not the poeple who are homeless; and how do we respond: By ushering them from our views so they don't plauge us with the kind of guilt that comes with seeing the economicaly downtrodden. There are poeple on this comment page using the word “scum” to describe the homeless and I can't help but think its the other way around; the people that are trying to sweep them away from view are more likely the scum in this debate. We need to see homeless poeple so we aren't lulled into thinking everything is ok with our country. Its not, haven't you been paying attention, we are in a recession–and with it comes increased homelessness, drug addiction, alcoholism. The residents representing Ballard here (I am one too by the way) sound like they have been sheltered too long in our easy living town; I would like to thank the few that backed me up when I tried to say how bad belltown was comparatively. Belltown's crime and drug problems make Ballard look like–well Ballard, plain and simple. Instead of paying attention to the same twenty or so vagrants, who may or may not be alcoholics, who may or may not deal drugs, who may or may not use drugs; go to belltown around midnight and be ready for some real exposure to crime and drugs. I'm kinda suprised how naive some of you sound when referring to the crime in Ballard. It is so harmless compared to the the kind of crime that occurs in other neighborhoods. And, if I am way off please fill me in on the worst of it; the murders, the territory battles ending in murder, the prostitution on every street corner, massive drug usage out in the open. All I have really gathered as evidence of the crime in Ballard is alot of heresay, and a picture of two drunks who may or may not sell drugs. I don't like seeing homeless poeple either but I would never try to get them out of my neighborhood because it is depressing to see them, sorry to say it, you poeple have lost touch.
The “happiness” ranking is interesting. Most of the highly ranked states are places that I'd never ever want to live (Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma, West Virginia, South Dakota, Louisiana, etc).
I did notice that Hawaii is #4 in happiness and #2 in tax burden. Go figure.
The difference between our tax burden rankings is mine is based on % of income, while yours is strictly dollars per capita. In other words, we pay more, but we also make more.
Briancandy I like you post, thanks.
Now get ready to be flamed to high heaven….
Oh wait, that was the OLD myballard!
Well Briancandy
Step up to the licklog and start housing some of your homeless friends. Remember charity is only charity when you actually do it, not when you talk about it. Bring them into your home, let them camp in your yard, and let them eat at your table. Give us a shining example to emulate. There are homeless that are on the street from bad luck and most of the time you don't see them. You see the ones that choose to be there. I donate yearly to one of the finest organization for getting homeless off of the street. The Union Gospel Mission. They don't make homeless more comfortable on the street, they get them off. They have an incredible track record and deserve support. That is what being charitable is all about. If supporting them and their goals makes me scum, then so be it.
Again, thanks for your time.
Yeah, I could see that in Hawaii, it is Hawaii, I wasn't surprised.
*edited*
ok, after some thought, 'we' includes folks that aint you. “we pay more, but we also make more”.
Would you like to spend the day in my shoes, with my pay, and then tell me that drivel? I think not, but, you may surprise me.
Guess I was wrong…..
So pointing out that being charitable requires actual charity is flaming? Wow, this is new Ballard
this is ridiculous.
I missedyour point about thetaxes,I thought youweresayingthat wewereovertaxedandwouldn'tbewillingtopaymore.
We need a better solution. I don't want it to stink when I go for my Slooper sized beer!
Seriously though, who's lot is it? Can we lean on them to police it?
“So pointing out that being charitable requires actual charity is flaming? “
Criticizing anything the far left squirts out in Seattle is flaming.
Briancandy,
You appear to be a victim of a major misconception that affects almost everyone when first confronted with this street problem, i.e., that this is a homeless problem. This misconception is the cause of our paralysis in dealing with the issue. It is important to see this as a crime problem. True, the scale of crime in Ballard pales next to that of Belltown, but this year we have had two murders, break-ins at Thaiku Restaurant, Volterra Restaurant, Collective, The Guitar Store, Olsen's properties, The Palm Room, and Duque. We have experienced numerous broken windows up and down Ballard Avenue, and on one night alone, in January, twenty-four car windows on Shilshole Avenue were shattered by car prowlers. All of this, coupled with an upsurge of serious graffitti, public drunkeness, public urination and defecation in our doorways and walkways, open air drug markets, and prostitution, add up to an intolerable state of social disorder.
If you don't believe me, check out the North Precinct Police Blotter, which posts all the crime occurring in this area.
Regarding the homeless who make you feel guilty, please remember that Ballard is actually a charitable neighborhood, which feeds the homeless seven days a week at the Food Bank and various churches uptown. Great Harvest Bakery offers free handouts every day. A couple of the churches offer sleeping facilities as well as numerous parking spaces for RV's and campers. There are many homeless among us who follow society's rules and respect their fellow human beings just as we do. No need for guilt, though if it motivates you to seek a resolution – so be it.
I said it was depressing seeing homless poeple, not that it made me feel guilty. I didn't want to mention this earlier but I have covered crime for small papers in the central district, U-district, downtown and in a third world country while I was abroad. Its from this perspective that my argument comes from that crime in Ballard is nominal at best. You can go ahead and list a whole laundry list of crimes all you want; still Ballard is safe and for the most part low on crime. And, if you want some real insight into this debate go and ask a Seattle police officer how he/she feels about crime in Ballard as compared to the other areas that the SPD covers.
Gotta say, it seems, that my friends are droppin like flies, I don't know who or why, but it's clear that 'somebody' wants 'us', that can think for 'ourselves', to shut up.
Awaiting the deletion….
…just a matter of time….
Spineless, effectless , and beholding to ALL the wrong people. Yeah, you!
sorry m, the devil is at work, but we are stronger.
This comment system seriously sucks, more work needed. Maybe the swedes aren't quite as 'geeky' as they claim. This bs social networking comment system doesn't seem to be working.
SPG, sorry, I like and respect you. I do not agree with any further taxes until our house is in order. It's clear to me, based on everything I've read, everyone I trust, that is simply not the case. (insert pointed fingers here, as you see fit)
The money grab here is blatant and evil. The victims are our children and grandchildren, and their children and grandchildren, if that is even a possibility.
The lack of accountability is stunning, the lack of vision is deplorable. If we don't right this ship, we are sunk. We become the spoils. Bless those you can, fight those you must, and be not afraid, for you will walk with the truth, always.
God Bless the Geeky Swedes for this voice, I feel out of breath.
chopper out
“sexual behavior, said one of the neighbors,” Really? So there are ladys of the night around? Or is it just homeless dudes helping each other out?
Somehow I doubt “one of the neighbors” that there is anything sexual going on at either of these parks. If I'm wrong, can anyone give me tips on how to pick up a hooker down there?
See? According to Brain, 3rd world traveler, Ballard is not as bad as Kolkata, so quite yer whinning.
Just ask any of the homeless native women you see running around with the drunk men. They are all prostitutes. They whore themselves out for booze and drugs…mostly booze. They might not hang out on the corner or walk the streets but they are prostitutes doing lewd acts in the parks or on the train tracks or wherever they can find a spot. I think we can all agree that Ballard is not as bad as Belltown, or even close for that matter, but we are not trying to claim that. We are recognizing that crime and the homeless rate are on the rise in OUR community and that we would like to do something about it. We don't want Ballard to become a new Belltown. By allowing their behaivor to continue through our passiveness we are inviting this problem to grow. Word does get out in the homeless community and right now Ballard is looking like The Highlands to Seattle's homeless. It's a relative paradise. The police do nothing, the tax payers do nothing, there's ample supply of whatever mind alterer you desire…what's not to love? Ballard is a suburb for the homeless.
“By allowing their behaivor to continue through our passiveness we are inviting this problem to grow”
Thanks tippy, that's the issue in a nutshell, if the good citizens of Ballard are inclined to ignore these issues, they will not be an issue for the police either. The result will be more, not less, of these problems. Again, I can't sit idle as Ballard becomes the new Belltown, and Market St. becomes the new Aurora.
It's simply not an option.
ok. let's put Taxes aside, let's just imagine for a moment that Ballard finds a pot o' gold and can do what it likes with the money. In this scenario, you are tasked with solving the crime problem and given the authority to use public resources to do it, what would you do?
Briancandy,
Well, that explains it! Your exposure to crime has raised your threshold and desensitized you to Ballard's brand of crime. This same thing happens to kids who watch a lot of violent TV.
That's heady stuff SPG. But I'll play along.
First, half of the police force would be out of their cruisers. They'd be the beat cops of old, approachable to the citizens, and generally more visible, more often.
They would have the full support of the public safety czar (yeah me!)
The 'catch and release' mentality that has grown would end. If I could rip off some of sheriff Joe Arpio's (sp?) tactics, yep, the tent jails, pink boxers, and bpj's for lunch, whatever it took to provide the required jail space to accomplish that goal, but early release wouldn't ever be a possibility. Upon release, community service and probation would be the rule, not the exception. And repeat offenders? Ballard would buy an Island, far away, kind of like Australia's history.
Yeah, and the tent city rules that I stated before wouldn't be negotiable. These rules would be the law, whether it were public, or privately provided.
I'd manage the 'pot of gold' dutifully, because, I'd have to constantly battle the ACLU in state and federal courts for the right to do what's right.
And then, I could assure my re-election ;-)
Thanks for the fantasy tour, I liked that, but…*snap*… back to reality.
Be well, my friend.
Ok, not bad. What if we could attain one of those goals right now? How about beat cops? Right now the SPD is responding to calls so much that they don't have much time to patrol, let alone walk a beat. If we hired a few more cops with the intent of having them assigned to walking beats would you be ok with that?
Without question, yes. It's the most pressing issue, imo.
And I don't relish calling our police force inadequate, but the focus has to be on public safety, not revenue, let the cameras and parking enforcement do that. We need beat cops.
Let me know when we can talk beats. ;-)
“I donate yearly to one of the finest organization for getting homeless off of the street. The Union Gospel Mission.”
Thanks again TTTCOTTH. This is the right way to help. Long term solutions. Investment in those who want better than to panhandle, deal drugs, and get drunk. I fully endorse and support the mission (For me it started with the Bread of Life Mission) I'd also suggest Habitat For Humanity, a truly lasting investment…and I love to build things ;-)
“The funny thing about the homelessness issue is that it is our issue, not the poeple who are homeless”
BC, not only is that not funny, it's simply not true. So please, stop lying, especially if your going to follow that lie with a whole giant paragraph of drivel.
I'd say it's you that has lost touch.
Yes, but still we are not talking about helping these poeple out, were talking about setting up a way of keeping them out of two parks (which by the way aren't really parks but more accurately public space); they will move on to the next and then more tax payers money will be used to do the same there. You can't end homelessness by setting up a system so that they can be arrested when they repeatedly go to these places. Does anybody know how much tax payer money is wasted when you involve the police in matters like this. They should be combatting violent crime, not arresting the homeless for tresspassing on public space. It costs somewhere like $78 dollars per person, per day, to keep a person in prison, and a bit less then that for county lock up. You really want to waste you tax payer dollars on this?
Hey, were the ones making the decisions here. And, opinions can't be lies, “so please stop” acting stupid. The homeless aren't making the motion to waste tax-payer dollars on trying to move themsleves out of two city parks so they can move two blocks down, or across the street, so that the whole uproar can start again. Here's a free idea that poeple can get behind and use all this energy that is being wasted on some silly websites comment page thinking up creative ways to be offensive (me as well): Lets all go to these parks and force the homeless poeple to leave simply with our presence, if there are enough of us just using the park, sitting around chatting, playing music, whatever; they will leave. It's the only real way to own public spaces by taking care of the problem yourselves and not enlisting the Seattle police to do it; because honestly they have better things to do.
Yeah your right. The whole “third world” thing effed up my whole argument, wish I had left that out! Oh well, next time!
Absolutely, some of us are, anyway. I take exception, again, to you attesting that they have no other choices, and simply are stuck being unproductive, it's just not true!
There are tons of options that will get them on their feet. But they have to make that choice, not us. Our decision becomes to allow it or not. I choose not, and SPD knows that theses issues are a matter of public safety, and I intend to partner with them, to support them, to protect Ballard, first.
oh, and sorry for the word drivel, not quite fair….enjoy the day.
We have to start somewhere, services are available, but you won't find them drunk or high in our parks! I don't consider it wasteful, at all. I don't think that law enforcement wastes it's time enforcing law. I don't intend to end homelessness, I intend to make it a more difficult for them to continue to choose poorly. Being unproductive is a choice, too.
And yes, we are talking about helping them out…maybe they'll get it.
Briancandy,
The “homeless”, or more accurately, the criminally inclined who may in some cases be homeless, are not merely trespassing. They are urinating, defecating, drinking, “lovemaking”,camping, doing crack, meth and other substances – all this at the expense of the rest of us who would like to enjoy the spaces, but can't.
It is not a waste of taxpayer's money to spend it on the maintenance of this problem. It is the necessary cost of doing business in a society. We can economize, however, by becoming an active community and doing just what you suggest: go into the parks and actively use them (this is happening already).
As far as helping the homeless, join the organizations who are now feeding, clothing, and bedding them. They are all over Ballard. Most of the late-stage alcoholics and drug addicts are so self destructive that you may not see much change, but you could try.
I think we need to make a distinction here between the homeless and the bums. The bums are homeless, but not all the homeless are bums. The people who've made some bad choices, had some bad luck, and wound up hitting bottom don't always stay that way. These are the people that can benefit from a helping hand. You'd be surprised at how many people around you have been there and back.
The problem here is that there are a bunch of bums who don't want 'any part of your society' and would rather drink and get high on the street. These bums/transients/addicts have no respect for your property, our laws, or any concern for the neighborhood. These bums live off the services that are there with the intent of getting the redeemable homeless back on their feet. What do we do with these people? Leave 'em alone to panhandle, hustle, or rob for a fix? Cut off the services and see if any clean up their act or go all in on crime to get by? Increase the services to keep them out of trouble?
Ask the SPD, they spend most of their time responding to calls because they don't have the manpower to do it any other way. They even know where the hotspots for crime are, but can't even park a car there for long without having to get pulled off to respond to a call.
Hire some more cops and then they'll be able to consider having beat cops in the neighborhoods again. Until then it will be more of the same, responding to calls and playing whack a mole all around town.
Agreed, the Q? Where's that pot o' gold?
btw, saw patrol heading west on Market St., on a bike this morning. There is a visible up-tick in SPD presence as of late. Both beat and cruiser, and I'm grateful for that. It will have an effect, hope it is enough for now…
Let's not forget, the one recourse that costs us nothing, is us, let's utilize it to the best of our ability.
Have a good day my friend.
Good points, and questions. I'd hazard a guess, that until we have more of a feel of who is who, we can't even begin to reach for the redeemable, because we'll be enabling the others as well, and that is a sorry road, as we've seen.
I can't resist saying again, that there are good choices available for those who need it. Should we flier up Ballard with that info for them? Would that help the help-able, or do they already have that info here, and aren't yet ready to avail themselves of it? All the same, the message needs to be clear, quit being a public safety issue, or deal with the consequences.
Chopper_74,
I just now reread your appeal about contacting the City Council. I should mention that many concerned Ballard Avenue businesses and residents have already met with Councilman Tim Burgess who strongly supports our efforts. If you log on to his website, http://www.seattle.gov/council/burgess/, you will see his outline for his Safer Streets Initiative. Also, as you know, the city is now going through the budget cutting process and will be holding public hearings soon. I'm sure it would be helpful for us to show up and sound off.
Every little bit counts!
Anyone else see that brawl in Bergen Park around noon today. A guy coming around the corner from the Chai House, got kicked pretty hard by a big black male, with a red hoodie. The “Victim” was someone who I don't think was from Ballard and looked like a transient. He got a kung foo style kick to the side of the knees which looked pretty painful. The type that would break your knees.
Then, the weird guy with the pitbull and fat girlfriend, who panhndlle came around the corner and joined in with screaming and threatening. The fat con artist girl was not with him. The fight almost broke out a second time with that nut with the pitbull usually by his side.
The two shouted back and forth for about 5 minutes. Every person within two blocks watched the commotion in stunned disbelief. It seems the pitbull guy is no longer living in an RV, but is now pushing around a huge shopping cart full of his junk. The dog is missing
What a mess that park is. I know the police say use it, but I seriously would not suggest it right now. Last week two transients were exchanging punches over a cell phone.
After that cleared out, about 10 “Hippies” from the Chai House took over. Transients is what I call them. They all had back packs and dogs so they are probably homeless teens. I real awakening this morning for sure.
Just curious is anyone ar Veras or another place close by caught the action. Of course, no cops were close by to alert.
I am all for every person having a right to the park, but two weekends in a row a fight breaks out? Mid day?
Count me among you, and thank you.
This is sad news, I missed it, but am well aware of the characters involved. It seems as tho that park is indeed not available to us yet. So, thanks for the update, we'll have to keep the pressure up until it is.
btw, witness and report, don't put yourself at risk, others have the tools for this, you have the eyes, thanks for using them.
I have seen homeless around Ballard, but why all the violent and confrontational ones now? If they would leave me alone I would not have an issue, but some of these guys are just looking for a fight or reason to chew you out. Not something you need first thing in the morning in Ballard.
Yea right
The shopping cop guy and the black guy with the red hoodie are walking around downtown Ballard at this very moment. I just saw one of them. Call the cops, see if they even show up, or ask the guys what is going on. Good luck, they won't even respond to the call.
By the way Chopper 74. The “bike patrol” you said you saw this morning, was a parking meter cop on a bike. He rode right past me and also right by the fight. These are not patrols. It says Seattle Police Parking enforcement on the jacket. Look closeley next time. I saw him too. An asian police looking guy, right?
It is extremely important to call 911, even if the cops don't show! Those of us who have met with the North Precinct have been told that a 911 call, by law, must be logged into the system. The more reports that are made, the more attention will be paid to this area. Call again if no one shows. That will be one more call attached to that incident. Get your friends to call, as well. This is all part of the process – incremental though it may be.
i think that there are a lot of younger couples with families moving into Ballard, moving into the condos and townhouses, ok, i think they have an influence on Ballard now and we ballard folk that have been here for a while are all going to have to get used to it. I think freaks and yuppies CAN live side by side.
That said…
I do see drunks and addicts hanging out, but I see also kids just hanging too, visitors enjoying the parks. I have never had a problem with any of them in the 7 years I have been in Ballard. Not one. I am a small build, young white female. Never a problem.
If there is such a problem with drunks and druggies, why is it you want to shove them around and push them out instead of extend a hand to lift them up? i read all the way down this thread and could not find one example of someone suggesting another more kind, compassionate approach. It is so funny to me how linear the thought are here.
So we get “them” (by the way, you can't say this is not a homeless issue…studies have proven the poorer you are the more likely you are to be involved with drugs/alcohol) out of Ballard, away from businesses and tourists, away from young couples and babies and cute little pure bred puppies and the problem goes…where? down the road for someone else to deal with?
another “Ballard” with the same problem.
That is not the way to fix things other than targeting “the guy in the red hoodie” for unknown crimes. What about those business people approaching them and asking them to leave. A group of 80 people down in the park proclaiming it a drug free zone would do a lot more than trying to get a non-existent police force to come out and do something. I don't know..
There must be a better way, people.
one more small note:
“urban gentrification”
“While those who view gentrification positively cite local reductions in a neighborhood's property crime rate, its critics argue that overall crime rates have not actually been reduced, but merely shifted to different lower-income neighborhoods.”
thesmallstuff,
I hear your plea, but not concrete suggestions. How would you suggest we deal with public drunkenness, public urination and defecation, open air drug markets, public “lovemaking”, graffiti, violence, car prowling, and break ins?
Please give us compassionate solutions to each of these behaviors (by the way, I do like your suggestion for a Drug Free Zone and a large group of people in the park). This is a good opportunity to change the direction of our “linear” conversation. You are on the air.
Come on, there is no “Love Making” as you call it. Let's not cloud the issue. Fighting and open beer containers yes, Love Making, no. That one is just made up.
Well, OK. Let's call it sex, then. How about Love in the Afternoon below Thaiku Restaurant window while I'm eating lunch, involving three men and a young, wasted blonde woman?
I have honest to God …witnessed a totally wasted woman sitting bare from the waste down, (she still had her jeans on up to her high thigh area), she was sitting on a man's lap and his jeans were open and down and this was in the middle of a summer afternoon. They didn't see me in the park with my dog and when I coughed to get their attention, the man threw the woman off his lap into the oregon grape plants and I know what I saw. This was in Marvins Garden in one of the open paths in the middle of the afternoon. Yes, it does happen.
Well, I guess it could be true, but sounds almost hard to believe. Why has nobody installed a camera facing the two parks. Is that easier than a petition? I don't go to either park myself, but you would think someone who has an interest in the parks would get a collection together to raise funds for a couple nice outdoor cameras. Pitch in and set a couple up. Whats so complicated?
You can install a camera, but what good will it do? Who's going to monitor it? Who's going to enforce any lawbreaking caught on the video? Are the police even going to show up? Are they even going to bother looking at the tape? Are they going to be able to use it in court? At best it would be a small deterrent.
A camera in a business is good for catching shoplifters and employee pilfering, but public cameras aren't much good unless you do it on a scale like London with massive resources devoted to monitoring all the cameras.
oh yea… thats true. The case today was a clear assault, so that time it would have done something. If the police came, or cared to persue something.
Taking the benches out would help, but ruins the park. It honestly may be the only long term solution though. folding chairs could be brought in for events.
The people who live above Thaiku have taken a LOT of pictures of sex acts going on in Marvin Gardens. Do we really need crack whores and prostitution in our neighborhood? They showed the pictures to the cops, who said that they have to catch them in the act. Huh? I've been down on Ballard Avenue late at night and seen this going on. I for one am pretty disgusted. It would not be happening if we didn't have this drug traffic/vagrants in the parks.
unreal, well.. I hate to say it, but it looks like hiring a rent a cop to walk around Ballard enforcing the law is the only choice. We could go around and around forever, but it always comes back to that as the only solution. Otherwise, the economy of Ballard collapses and we wish we did hire someone. The cops are useless in solving this. Nothing against them, but it will never work calling 911.
There is a guy who works nights outside the apartment by 7-11 who is good. Maybe someone could ask him if he wants some side work. He knows all the crazy people by face. Or, the guy in Safeway is nice too, and might need some extra hours. Or, maybe a Ballard doorman who needs money. I am not saying roughing people up. Just explaining niceley, they work for so and so, and since you are breaking the basic laws, you have to move along.
Yeah, I saw him later, correct, parking enforcement.
A thirsty individual in the desert sees water everywhere…(sigh)
I think it's a tad defeatist to say that calling 911 will never work, it can't always work, but it's not futile. The more information that the police can get, whether through 911, or direct investigation through witnesses, etc., does yield results. All calls are logged, trends emerge, task forces are created, and problems get solved.
With-out the support of the public in these ways, we are expecting them to take the heat for crime problems, with-out providing the tools necessary.
I'm not going to argue the need for beat cops. But they too, would need more support than you seem willing to endorse.
As far as cameras, yes a deterrent, but also a source off evidence, and these days it takes a hell of a lot of evidence to get any convictions. So the more the merrier. But if a camera witnesses a crime, it can't call 911, that's still up to us. The camera might help us put the criminal away for awhile, but the arrest has to happen first.
Report.
Happy Easter
Who says I would not support beat cops. When are they arriving exactly?
Also, how is calling 911 better than hiring private security, when we have sudden brawls breaking out in Bergen Park two weeks in a row and a transient with a box cutter going crazy in two Ballard Ave bars, like a couple weeks back. 911 takes 40 minutes.
We can be cheerleaders for the Seattle Police all we like.
I am worried about stopping the guy with a box cutter before he hurts someone, NOW, not in 45 minutes after he is long gone. Or breaking up the brawl in the park before some father gets pulled in trying to protect his family who are strolling through. The police say “don't be afraid to use the parks.
That is a great help. Thanks
Thats easy for them to say. They have guns and are allowed to use them. We don't.
Beat cops would need the help of us calling 911 as well.
Based on my recent track record, I'd hesitate to call them beat cops, but last night I saw two officers, young, a male and female, with police uniforms, and flashlights, on Market St., and that's all I saw (except they were on foot). So perhaps it was a beat, perhaps it was a another mirage…
The beat cops you talked about yesterday were parking meter police on bikes. I saw them close up. Maybe someone else has seen beat cops. If so, post something here. I want beat cops. I would just be surprised if they are actually here. Maybe you could call the station and verify it for us. If they are here, why are they not down at Bergen Park or Marvin Gardens?
I am just saying, calling 911 in hysterics claiming “the boogie man just went by pushing a shopping cart” 50 times a day, is wasting everyones time, including the 911 switchboard operator. So, is spending hours on myballard.com
Just put an ad in the Ballard News Tribune for a private security person to walk around the neighborhood. Get two or three hired at 10 bucks and hour and then we can look at how to pay them. It's well worth the money and will save us all a lot of time.
” merely shifted to different lower-income neighborhoods.”
Better they rob their own neighbors don't you think?
[Old business–sorry for the delay]
What's wrong with the claims about police effects on the NYC crime rate is that there were similar drops in other cities which didn't make policing changes. So the claims aren't credible. At most the policy changes made small differences.
I think the main problems of suburbanites traveling to Seattle is difficulty of navigation and expense of parking. The crime rate isn't a lot of fun, either. As far as I can tell I am at more risk here in Ballard than anywhere else I have lived, which I find stunningly strange.
Krawk!
[Old business–sorry for the delay]
Except that there were similar drops in other cities which didn't make policing changes. So the claims aren't credible. At most the policing changes made small differences.
As opposed to a 10% sales tax? Sure. I've lived here, and in Oregon, which has an income tax and no sales tax, and I'd much rather deal with the income tax.