http://www.myballard.com/forum/ A forum for the Seattle neighborhood of Ballard en Sat, 25 May 2013 16:36:37 +0000 http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44366 Sat, 20 Feb 2010 00:12:34 +0000 onederfullone 44366@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>Opt-out is not possible under the constitution, nor should it be. Vouchers would be. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44335 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:07:17 +0000 kkp 44335@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>eek. That's a slippery slope isn't it? What about people w/o kids, or who have kids who have graduated or retirees .... All of them still pay taxes and aren't using the public school system. But they all benefit from an educated work force who become taxpayers...</p> <p>The opt out system described above... isn't that one step away from, "I don't drive so my tax money shouldn't go to road maintenance" or "I'm against the war so I don't want my tax money going to fund the army" etc. ? I think that's your point re: the taxation system as it stands, but that's what we've got... Other peoples money (mine included)are used to pay for some things I agree with, some things I don't but I still pay taxes. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44236 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 05:39:46 +0000 Andy Taylor 44236@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>The voucher system is based on the idea that the education system is part of the free market that must compete with other entities in the same line of business. Just as one grocery chain or car company must compete with another for their customers. The increased competition that is supposed to result from the freedom of choice in the marketplace will end in the competing businesses (schools in this case) improving their services to keep and attract customers. </p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7e2kXQPOc" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL7e2kXQPOc</a></p> <p>Milton Friedman, in his "Free To Choose" series explains the voucher system pretty<br /> well.</p> <p>I take issue with the voucher system because it assumes everyone is happy with system of taxation as it stands. Say if voucher amount were $10,000/year, chances are you did not pay that full amount in taxes. Other Peoples Money is being used to pay for a part of that voucher. Families who choose to utilize public schools or to home school still have pay taxes and the added expense of the private/home schooling. A Double whammy. I would much rather see an "opt-out" policy be made available to those who chose not to utilize the public education system thus allowing them to use the money they would have paid in public education taxes for private/home schooling. This prevents well off people from getting an hand out and the poor from being assigned second class status. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44215 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 04:08:28 +0000 onederfullone 44215@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>First of all, like medicare reimbursements, the cost of the tuition was capped at the voucher level. With the cost per student already at an unbelievable level based on the public school model, no private or charter school was concerned about the value of the voucher, nor having to accept the cap.<br /> Second of all, change is difficult. The only thing that makes it any easier is knowing that you have to. When you do, you will. This system not only fails miserably, it's not sustainable.<br /> At least the students will understand extinction, the cause and effect.</p> <p>Edog, 'No matter how good the (public) schools are in their district..."<br /> That bar only goes so high, and it's so low we're tripping over it. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44179 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:23:18 +0000 Edog 44179@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>"I'm just misinterpreting private school = better"</p> <p>I don't know why people believe this, but its simply not an absolute relationship.</p> <p>Richard Benjamin who spoke at Town Hall earlier this year spoke about that phenomena. No matter how good the schools are in their district, white middle class people are really excited by private schools.</p> <p><a href="http://www.richbenjamin.com/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.richbenjamin.com/index.html</a> </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44177 Fri, 19 Feb 2010 00:19:48 +0000 BriarRose 44177@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>Really bamber it's not better just more separate. Of course many find separate tio be better. If they choose to pay for that they have that right. </p> <p>Kids get the education they want, regardless of where they attend school. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44173 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:52:31 +0000 Bamber 44173@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>I'd rather not send my kids to private school. I'd rather spend that money on family experiences. I guess it just bothers me that -if you have they money...you get the best education for your kids. Or maybe I'm just misinterpreting private school = better. I'd love for my kids to have small class sizes and get more personal attention. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44172 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:47:19 +0000 Edog 44172@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>Wolfden - Thats a hard point, but its hardly mean.... I mean thats the crux of it. Perhaps I can get few billion from the government to fund my own army, as I'm not happy with our national security policy, and feel my family would be better served by Blackwater. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44165 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:21:50 +0000 wolfden 44165@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>I realize why it's so easy to be less than friendly on this forum. I had to resist the urge to reply with a less than kind tone to the "If you feel the need to send your kid to private then you pay for it and don't ask for my taxes to help you.". </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44156 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 23:00:00 +0000 BriarRose 44156@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>So Bamber basically as everyone here has illustrated, vouchers are a subsidy for private schools and the wealthy who already attend them. You seldom get $10,000 for a $15,000 school. More like $3000 for a $20000 school. Yeah that’ll help the poor in bad schools. : )</p> <p>If you feel the need to send your kid to private then you pay for it and don't ask for my taxes to help you. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44153 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:40:06 +0000 Edog 44153@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>"I'm really curious about how the voucher system plays out in real life"</p> <p>So are the people who proposed them, as a program they are an administrative mess.</p> <p>"get a 10K voucher for a private school that costs 15K"</p> <p>The Congressional GOP in congress had to deal with a similar issue when they forced DC schools to run a voucher program. They authorized an amount that would barely touch what a private school in DC would cost.</p> <p>"You'd still have parents who 1. don't care or 2. don't know better."</p> <p>Thats the head of the nail. There is a skimming component to private schools. These schools succeed because they don't have to deal with all the different needs of a community, only the ones they want to address. I don't know about Seattle, but most private schools where I grew up were a product of one type of segregation or another, and as institutions they exclusively tried to avoid dealing with the populations who were presumed to use vouchers. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44149 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 22:28:16 +0000 kkp 44149@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>So, families who meet the financial guidelines get vouchers and can use them anywhere? Public, private? Does it ever happen that they use their vouchers for public schools in different areas, and are vouchers given priority? That is to say, could my neighborhood school ostensibly be filed w/ children from all over the city who choose to use their vouchers there? So neighborhood kids couldn't go to that school ? </p> <p>I'm not being sassy, I'm really curious about how the voucher system plays out in real life. If you meet the fincancial guidelines and get a 10K voucher for a private school that costs 15K per year, you still need to come up w/the difference right? For some familes (esp those who need to meet the guidelines) that could be hard, right? Sure there are scholarships, but prob. not enough. And would they even be eligible for scholarships if they used vouchers in the first place? </p> <p>I'd like to see how the new school funding legistlation works out (as well as the new court ruling supporting those funding requirements) in conjunction w/ the new assignment plan --- hopefully it will mitigate some of the problems that drive folks to seek vouchers. </p> <p>Seems to me that even if we had vouchers, the problems would still be the same. You have parents (from all income brackets) who 1. care and 2. know that they need to/ know how to research and accomplish the steps necessary to help further their child's education. Those same parents would be seeking out and using vouchers, I imagine. You'd still have parents who 1. don't care or 2. don't know better. (sadly, I think more in the former : ( ) and they aren't going to care more just b/c there are vouchers.. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44139 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:43:15 +0000 Edog 44139@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>"cornered and desperate"</p> <p>Yes, your buttons were pushed all right. It as a key piece of "compassionate conservatism" that was expediently dropped as soon as the GOP figured out they could win more votes by scaring people with Gay Marriage and Endless War. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44130 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:24:02 +0000 onederfullone 44130@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>edog, I was a major contributor and proponent of the voucher system when it came up.<br /> We were outspent 50 to 1 on that initiative. </p> <p>The WEA was cornered and desperate. The lies were broad and unconscionable.<br /> The most deceitful tactic was in telling the voters that it would unfairly target poor areas, stating that charter schools wouldn't be available to them. "Nobody would serve the poor". Excuse me? The poor are very aware of how crappy their public schools are, and the polling showed that they weren't buying it, they intended to use vouchers as an option. So much so, that many of the public schools in those areas were slated to become charter schools.<br /> They also told the 'rich' districts, that didn't want their funding priority undermined, that vouchers would pull their funding to other districts, these lies caused the failure of the initiative.<br /> btw, this was the time when the Seattle School District was busing rich AND poor all over the damn city. </p> <p>It was stunning, this voucher failure, and we have been paying dearly for that ever since. Mostly our kids have been paying for it, but our education dollar continues to loose value quickly. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44125 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:16:20 +0000 Edog 44125@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>"and I are purely middle class.....Would a voucher work for us?"</p> <p>Even if the state/city had vouchers, probably not. The test programs generally have income requirements attached to them. Additionally, pupils have to be at a school that is officially deemed as failing, and your child would have to be doing exceptionally well to show they are worthy of the expense, and able to make the most of it.</p> <p>I think you'll find that each area that has tried them has tried different approaches, but I think those are key underpinnings of any voucher program. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44122 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 21:02:21 +0000 onederfullone 44122@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>Or, better yet, start writing letters to your reps and senators.</p> <p>You won't be the only one.</p> <p>Saving pennies is always a good idea ;-) </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44120 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:57:37 +0000 Edog 44120@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>"So far the WEA and the state legislature has blocked every attempt at making vouchers the law in this state."</p> <p>Don't forget the politicians who used to champion them no longer raise the issue, or at least not as a priority. Politically its stinker. The public is generally against it, or very easy to turn against it. Back during the presidential cycle in 2000, there were statewide initiatives in California and Michigan, or maybe it was one state in the 2000, with another in 2002. In either case, not only did the measures fail, but the pollsters and policy wonks took a close look at it, and saw it was not something the public was open too. It was years ago, and I forget the specifics, but I attended a lecture where public opinion findings from both of those states initiatives were discussed and it was shown to be a real liability for those who would use it as part of a campaign platform. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44117 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:45:58 +0000 Bamber 44117@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>I suppose that one could liken this voucher discussion to the health care debate. If we level the playing ground for everyone - then more people benefit. The system as it stands currently - for education and health care - the more money you have - the more you benefit. </p> <p>We do not intend to send our kids to private school for the elementary years - as the elementary schools in this area are great - but I do wonder about middle/high school. Guess I better start saving my pennies now. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44116 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:43:52 +0000 onederfullone 44116@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>I wasn't finished, sorry.</p> <p>The public schools would definately have to pick up their game to continue to recieve those education dollars. The upshot is, if a school has been underserving your child, you'd have an option. The school that is underserving it's students would perish.</p> <p>Oh, and a raising tide lifts all boats I believe is the quote, but if yours isn't sea worthy, it becomes a reef ;-) </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44112 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:34:23 +0000 onederfullone 44112@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>Unfortunately, they don't work Bamber. So far the WEA and the state legislature has blocked every attempt at making vouchers the law in this state.</p> <p>The state constitution requires that the state provide funding for public education, as a primary responsibility, but not how.</p> <p>We, who for decades have believed that vouchers are the only way to solve what ails this system, believe that vouchers place the power to direct education dollars where they do the most good, in the hands of parents. Parents receive a voucher from the state for every school aged child. Parents spend that voucher where they choose, provided that the institution follows the guidelines set by the state as far as requirements, number of days, number of degrees, level of degrees, curriculum and so on. The state in turn, pays the institution you chose the value of the voucher, say 10,000, whatever it is.</p> <p>All private schools currently have to follow these guidelines to be accredited, and many also have the opportunity to have access to public schools for use of facilities, band, PE, extra-curricular, etc.</p> <p>The detractors, most of whom currently benefit from the existing system, claim that it would decimate the public schools, which tells you there is a problem with the current system, if the belief is that parents would pull their kids out in droves. </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44111 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 20:26:58 +0000 wolfden 44111@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>I don't believe the voucher program has been implemented in the state of WA or any of the counties in WA. </p> <p>*A few seconds of googling*</p> <p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher</a> </p> http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=3952#post-44107 Thu, 18 Feb 2010 19:58:32 +0000 Bamber 44107@http://www.myballard.com/forum/ <p>TOTALLY do not want to threadjack the poor private school post any further. I'm confused about how the whole voucher thing works. If you are unhappy with the public school options - then...apply for a voucher and get to go to private school? (I'm not being facetious - I've honestly wondered about this for a while.) Is there an income limit to apply for a voucher? My problem is - the'hub and I are purely middle class. We pay for everything...and there are no "breaks" or "discounts" for us. Would a voucher work for us? Sure...I'd love to send the kids to private school (although I do adore the public school we're at...but it would be nice to have smaller class sizes and more individualized attention that apparently - you can only get at a private institution." </p> <p>Anyway - my long-winded question is...how do these vouchers work and why would that be a better system? </p>