61. 

    dsomers
    

    offline

    Member

    Volvo,

    Nice to hear your mention of the WPA. The country got a huge benefit from that and the CCC. People were kept employed and active and supervised. The nation got some tremendous public work projects along our highways, public buildings, trails, in the National Parks and National Forests, etc. I can attest to both the utility and function and beauty of the things WPA and CCC did in our National Parks. Gorgeous bridges and roadways, many of our National Park trails and buildings, etc. And to this day the people who took part in those projects still express the pride of accomplishment they got from the work, and the gratitude they felt for the craft and leadership skills they learned and the much needed salaries they got in exchange. It was a bargain for the money spent.

    Posted 1 year ago #
62. 

    danmonaghan
    

    offline

    Member

    There but for the grace of Jaweh go you. Common sense and compassion dictate we create hygiene facilities for car campers, etc. And then provide plenty of negative feedback for those who continue to soil our streets
    and alleys. The Dalai Lama would call it: "Enlightened Self Interest". Google it.

    Don't underestimate the role mental illness is playing in this phenomenon (mental illness and poverty having a bit of a chicken & egg relationship). The ill should be treated with compassion, and, ideally, proper care & treatment. De-humanizing them is both cruel and unproductive.

    Posted 1 year ago #
63. 

    Mondoman
    

    offline

    Member

    Dan, we HAVE created millions of "hygiene facilities" -- they're called "restrooms".

    BTW, I do try to treat you with compassion :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
64. 

    danmonaghan
    

    offline

    Member

    Your compassion, like your pain, nourishes me,"Mondoman". No, really.

    Where are the public restrooms with showers, coin laundry, and tank-dumping facilities for Ballard's ever growing car camper
    community? The numbers aren't going down anytime soon. We can't just wish the poor, and their waste, away.

    How about a wpa-style program to build a sanitation center on that old car lot by the nw end of Ballard bridge, right by a bunch of campers.

    People usually live up, or down, to our expectations of them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
65. 

    danmonaghan
    

    offline

    Member

    Alternately, where CAN a poor homeless person use a restroom or a shower in Ballard?

    Aside from the library. Or mcdonalds.

    Posted 1 year ago #
66. 

    Mondoman
    

    offline

    Member

    City/county buildings, downtown Rest Stop, and so forth. Don't know why it has to be in Ballard, although they are here as well. I agree with you about expectations -- let's expect people to use restrooms.

    Posted 1 year ago #
67. 

    PizzaGuy
    

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    danmonaghan - why don't we do the really humane thing and reinstate institutionalization for the mentally ill? Given all the resources used now it would be less expensive and more humane to do that.

    Posted 1 year ago #
68. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Some mentally ill SHOULD be institutionalized. Some simply need proper medical attention to return to (varying degrees of) productivity. Some don't need institutionalization, do need medical attention, but can never be expected to attain a (conventionally-defined) level of productivity. "Mentally Ill" is a very broad category. Institutionalize those who would benefit. But don't ship them all off, or warehouse them somewhere, because they frighten you. That would be both inhuman, and certainly non-Christian (etc.)

    Why NOT Ballard?

    "Mondoman": It's not realistic to expect the homeless to rely solely upon public buidlings for their hygenic needs. And putting your head
    in the sand, or de-humanizing the ill and the poor, will not make the problem go away.

    May you never find yourself as vulnerable as Ballard's homeless are, "Mondoman". And you just
    never know.

    Posted 1 year ago #
69. 

    Lathum
    

    offline

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    Interesting to see people mention the WPA and CCC. Anyone who is interested in that subject I recommend this site put together by a professor at UW

    http://depts.washington.edu/depress/

    Posted 1 year ago #
70. 

    PizzaGuy
    

    offline

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    danmonaghan - I didn't say the mentally ill frighten me, it was a comment on best use of resources to help a segment of the population that is vulnerable. In a world of limited resources institutionalization is often the most beneficial to society. How does warehousing them in Ballard benefit them? Us? De-humanizing the ill and the poor will not make the problem go away, as you say above, but putting people who are ill into a safe environment, which will cost less than helping support them on the street means they frighten me? You contradict your arguement in your post.

    Posted 1 year ago #
71. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Pizza Guy: please understand that forum postings are an awkward way to conduct a conversation :) My apologies for apparent contradictions or lack of clarity.

    No, the mentally ill as a broad category of human beings do not frighten me (although, of course, some individual mentally ill - usually untreated - have frightened me...) Some of my favorite people have been / are so labeled. Yours too, no doubt. What I was getting at is, historically, the mentally ill were warehouse as much out of fear and revulsion than out of a desire to help. The other thing I was trying say was that many mentally ill do not need to be institutionalized, and, in fact it would be cruel and foolhardy to do so. Many illnesses respond well to medicine and treatment. These people could be expected to return to the workforce. And pay their own rent. And taxes. Everyone wins.

    Pragmatism and Compassion are in alignment on this one: We need to accept this problem and deal with it. Not wish it, and them away.

    Posted 1 year ago #
72. 

    PizzaGuy
    

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    danmonaghan - Thanks for clarifying it is much appreciated especially given we have different approaches to the issue, though I believe have the same goal, to help people who need it and do it in a way that is most beneficial to our society as a whole.

    Posted 1 year ago #
73. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    The important thing is we need to start talking about it, Pizzaguy, not just wishing it would go away. So, thanks!

    Posted 1 year ago #
74. 

    Mondoman
    

    offline

    Member

    "It's not realistic to expect the homeless to rely solely upon public buidlings for their hygenic needs."
    I guess we've gotten a bit off topic, since this thread was about car campers, but no biggie. If I were homeless, I'd use public restrooms, do laundry at a public coin-op, maybe join Fitness19 or other low-cost club for guaranteed access to showers, and so forth.

    For those who can't handle that, clearly other issues aside from "homelessness" are involved. Rather than enabling homelessness in situ, why not encourage entry into programs like Delancey Street, and let the individuals make their own choices?

    And don't worry, I'm a sand-free humanist.

    Posted 1 year ago #
75. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    "Mondoman":

    If you were homeless, by definition, you would have no money. Therefore, a gym membership would be out of reach to you. And if, at 2:00 am, you needed to urinate / defecate, and no open, accessible restrooms were available, you would do what you had to do, where you had to do it.

    And why should we shift this social burden to the private sector, and expect them to provide their restrooms for the homeless to use? That does not seem fair.

    And, yes, often / always(?) there is something other than "homelessness" at play ... most likely, as I've been saying ... mental illness. And you cannot wish it away, or shame it away. And the issue of car campers / homelessness is not going away, anytime soon.

    "Mondoman", I get them impression that you are either very young, and / or mentally ill, yourself. Therefore, I have plenry of compassion for you. However, out of respect for both of us, moving forward, I will stop responding to your postings. It's a waste of both our time.

    I'd wish you all the best, but you've already got it figured out.

    See you at the gym!

    Posted 1 year ago #
76. 

    PDaddymom
    

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    KIRO 97.3 FM Ross and Burbank show will be presenting a report on the Ballard car camping situation in a few minutes....

    Posted 1 year ago #
77. 

    Gilman Girl
    

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    PDaddymom, how was it?

    Over on the Magnolia site, it says there are now homeless camping / living in Discovery Park.

    Posted 1 year ago #
78. 

    Pastafarian
    

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    I was just roaming Discovery yesterday for a good couple of hours and didn't see those campers. But I would have been similarly annoyed had I seen them. I'm all about helping the homeless, but that's the nicest park in the city and people go there to relax, they don't want to run into a large group of homeless campers scattering trash and feces around. And the fact that the police apparently won't move them out if they refuse to leave is a ridiculous contradiction of the fact that camping in city parks is illegal.

    Posted 1 year ago #
79. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Where SHOULD / can they go, then? Other than 'away'?

    Posted 1 year ago #
80. 

    Pastafarian
    

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    That's always the question isn't it danmonaghan. There is no good answer. But the law is there. No camping in parks, period. Unless they have warrants police are instructed to let them stay. So lets say that three more groups move into the park, will that be enough to get the law enforced? How about if 6 more move in? At some point you have to draw a line in the sand.

    Not to mention that they're starting fires in a densely forested area, scattering trash and feces and god knows what else, which is completely unacceptable IMO.

    Posted 1 year ago #
81. 

    Gilman Girl
    

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    Sometimes, well frequently, I'm so embarrassed by the effed up things our city does.

    Which reminds me, don't forget to vote everyone.

    Posted 1 year ago #
82. 

    onederfullone
    

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    so 'mondoman' is too young, and/or mentally ill, to have a valid opinion?

    Interesting that you would reach for that, given that liberalism is indeed a mental illness, and we should require treatment for it.

    speaking of too young, that would describe everyone that will be left to pay for your insanity.

    This entitlement mentality is also in question. Is society required to provide for those that willfully choose to be a burden? Like, Liberals?

    I doubt I'll see you at the gym.

    Posted 1 year ago #
83. 

    Ernie
    

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    Time for a musical interlude.....

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOXOkqVORxw

    Posted 1 year ago #
84. 

    danmonaghan
    

    offline

    Member

    Mondoman can't get past the notion that the homeless don't use restrooms. When they don't actually have reliable access to bathrooms / rest rooms. If he can't get past that notion, I'm not interested in disussing more complex and nuanced issues with him, no.

    This is not about entitlement. This is about taking an honest look at a community problem, one that is not foing away no matter how much we wish it to. Don't shoot the messenger.

    Further, personally, I want to try to help dream up possible realistic, workable solutions that are also compassionate and respectful of the people involved. That goal is in line with my personal values.

    Our community would also benefit a formal, pragmatic plan of action.

    The all to short radio segment on the topic pointed out two important things (to me):

    1. We expect the homeless to be invisible.

    2. Increasingly, there are school aged children involved.

    I do not know what the solution is. Hoping it will just go away, or showering the homeless with hate, hasn't worked so well.

    The economy isn't springing back any time soon. This problem is only going to get worse before it gets better. There will be more, and if we don't create a safe, legal space for the impoverished to live, they will move to where we really don't want them to go. Like our parks.

    So, community, what are we actually going to DO about this problem? We've tried bitching, moaning, wishing and villifying, and that hasn't worked.

    What, realistically, and honoring the civil rights of the vulnerable human beings involved, what's next?

    Posted 1 year ago #
85. 

    onederfullone
    

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    Yeah, I'm very proud that I made it twenty seconds through that, Ernie.

    How about this gem?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlJA-cN2C_0&feature=related

    Posted 1 year ago #
86. 

    oldguybc
    

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    Member

    Out of curiosity, just how many people are we talking about here? How many vehicles and of what type are they living out of? What are the situations? Are any of them holding down jobs, menial or otherwise? How do they survive?

    It's like a different story for each instance. Maybe, just maybe we should be showing a little compassion and/or try to help some of these people that really need it.

    On our way home last week we came across some destitute people in Sutherlin, OR. This family of five had car problems and no money to help them, pretty bad for the kids. We found out the man had been promised a job "somewhere up north" that had evaporated once he traveled to the scene, along with promised assistance, and was trying to get back to Texas to relatives that could take care of his family.

    The good citizens of Sutherlin along with some other travelers scraped up plane fare for the wife and the three kids from Medford to San Antonio and also got the man some part time work at a tire store in Roseville. A lot of people just coming together with a little money and a few ideas to help. Tell you one thing, it was the best feeling in the world to be a part of the whole effort.

    Found out the plane tickets were actually cheaper than any other form of transportation, can you believe it? Friends of ours from Grants Pass came and got the four travelers and took them to the Medford Airport, around 250 miles of driving or so, free gratis!

    These people needed our help. Sure, there are some that take advantage of the situation but if you just think about the ones that really need help isn't it worth any effort you put forth?

    Can I get an "AMEN"???

    Posted 1 year ago #
87. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Thanks, Ernie! Great song. And, as a matter of fact, I AM in touch with Poontang!! And I thank the Cosmos for it night and day.

    And, yes, I am so Liberal it should give you night sweats.

    Posted 1 year ago #
88. 

    onederfullone
    

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    Amen.

    And your questions will remain unanswered, my friend.

    Case by case is the only solution. Grouped together they can recieve nothing good.

    Posted 1 year ago #
89. 

    je suis roi pigeon
    

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    But this forum is bitchfest central for the greater Ballard area. Mort de rire!!

    Posted 1 year ago #
90. 

    Norse
    

    offline

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    Some neighborhoods (Ballard, Lake City, Delridge) already have their share of the City catering to the homeless in the way of the "so-called supportive housing" for the chronic drunks, drug addicts and sex offenders. The 80-unit Urness House to be built in Ballard on 56th and 20th and the LIHI Urban Rest Stop to be built at 20th & 57th. Lake City has a couple of the properties, one is called the McDermott House and lest we forget Fire Station 39 that the City wants to turn into a permanent shelter after Nickelsville moved. Delridge has a DESC property going up to house 70 chronic homeless people with severe mental problems and another property that has just gone up on 35th just above Delridge. DESC has another 90 unit facility going up on 105th & Aurora and the Catholic Community Services is building a 70 unit facility on 42nd and Aurora. The City says Pioneer Square is tired of the chronically homeless so other City neighborhoods must share in the problem. It seems to me that Ballard, Lake City and Delridge have done their part. Let the rest of the City share the problem now if the City is so geared up to rescue these chronic drunks. How about some of the other neighborhoods -- Wedgewood, Greenwood, Maple Leaf, Queen Anne, Roosevelt, Laurelhurst, Windermere, Magnolia, Mt. Baker, Seward Park because until we stand up to this as a City -- the powers that be will only put more and more of these facilities (or car camper lots) out into residential neighborhoods.

    Posted 1 year ago #
91. 

    danmonaghan
    

    offline

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    Also, "Mondoman":

    FYI: Bathrooms are things usually found in "houses". Houses are sometimes called "homes".

    When you are "home-less", it often follows that you are also "bathroom-less".

    See how that works?

    I realize that this notion, so far from your personal experience, is hard for you to grasp. Well, be strong little cowboy, squeeze your brain real hard, and try to imagine yourself in ... get this! ... another person's shoes.

    What would you do at 2:00 in a camper nowhere near an accessible bathroom?

    Posted 1 year ago #
92. 

    teigyr
    

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    oldguybc, it sounds like a good story and I KNOW I am the perpetual sceptic but what I see in it is this. A person put themselves (and their family) at risk by traveling a long time for something indefinite. If relatives were back home to help them, why not stay there? Or why not just send the one person who was "promised" employment? Seems sketchy. While it was good that they got back home, hopefully this was a lesson for them. They lost a lot of money (presumably) and a car due to a really unwise decision. I realize that they don't deserve punishment by having people turn their backs on them but the BEST thing for them is to develop some common sense.

    I know there are people who need temporary help to get back on their feet but a lot of the car campers I see have beer cans and cigarette remnants strewn about their abode. To me that doesn't seem like a person who is trying to get back on their feet, that stuff is expensive. When I was reading car camping blogs just to get perspective, they do talk about how to handle waste. There are ways of doing it, albeit not pretty ways, that don't involve public urination/defecation. Some people care, others don't.

    Posted 1 year ago #
93. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Oldguy: Gotcha. I don't know what the answer is, but what we are doing is not working. Compassion aside, if we want a community worth living in in five years, we HAVE to do something now. Before things get even uglier. It will not be cheap. But action now is a bargain compared to reaction later.

    Posted 1 year ago #
94. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    So, what about a massive hygiene center, with strictly enforced rules on the old car lot at 15th @ 51st.

    Theoretically speaking.

    What if several such centers were created. And car campers encourage by parking enforcement to relocate to these centers.

    It will take something along those lines to make a dent. Expensive, yes, but the alternative is to give up on our community & lifestyle.

    Thoughts? Realistic alternatives?

    Posted 1 year ago #
95. 

    onederfullone
    

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    I don't know what the answer is, but what we are doing is not working.

    Yet, you advocate, all too strongly and with reckless abandon, to do more of the same.

    As far as squeezing your brain, yeah, try that yourself.

    Posted 1 year ago #
96. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    You're adorable when you're riled, 1Der.

    Posted 1 year ago #
97. 

    onederfullone
    

    offline

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    Realistic??? Really? lol

    It is vital that the red carpet is rolled up, for good.

    No one should be allowed to take from this community for nothing.

    I'll settle for a good faith gesture at this juncture, let's see that 'car-camper' locations all over this city be the cleanest, most non-defiled, lowest petty crime areas of the city.

    Then, I'll speak of your fantasies.

    Good luck rallying the 'troops'.

    [edit] I'm never adorable. Ask anybody.

    Posted 1 year ago #
98. 

    danmonaghan
    

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    Poor people REALLY frighten you, huh?

    Posted 1 year ago #
99. 

    Mondoman
    

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    "personally, I want to try to help dream up possible realistic, workable solutions that are also compassionate and respectful of the people involved. That goal is in line with my personal values."

    ROFL; thanks, I needed that!

    Posted 1 year ago #
100. 

     onederfullone
     

     offline

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     Poor people REALLY frighten you, huh?

     not in the least, they never have and never will. Been there, done that.

     I don't think you have to be poor to be careless and clueless, like, you don't have to be rich to have a clue, or have a care.

     What terrifies you is the thought that personal responsibility matters. But it does.

     Posted 1 year ago #
101. 

     Upside Down
     

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     ˙ʇı ǝʌoɥs puɐ ǝpnʇıʇʇɐ noɥʇ uɐɥʇ ɹǝıʇɥƃnɐɥ dn ʞɔnʇs puɐ sǝǝɹƃǝp ǝןdıʇןnɯ ɹnoʎ ǝʞɐʇ ʇı ʇɐ ɹnoʎ ǝןıɥʍ puɐ ˙ɥʇıʍ punoɹɐ ƃuıʞןɐʍ sʎɐʍןɐ ǝɹ,noʎ pɹɐǝq ƃuıʇsnƃsıp ʇɐɥʇ ǝʌɐɥs poƃ ɟo ǝʌoן ǝɥʇ ɹoɟ os ɟı ¿pɐɹq noʎ ʇɐɥʇ sı ˙uɐɥƃɐuoɯuɐp

     Posted 1 year ago #
102. 

     danmonaghan
     

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     Boy, those were some great and very workable possible solutions. Great food for thought. Thanks for sharing!

     Posted 1 year ago #
103. 

     danmonaghan
     

     offline

     Member

     We are so screwed.

     At this rate, in five years or so, we'll pine for the halcyon days of 2011, where steaming mounds of human waste behind the paint store, and homeless campers in Discovery Park, were our main concerns.

     At least we'll have taught those poor, crazy, sub-human f@ckers a thing or two about personal responsibility.

     Posted 1 year ago #
104. 

     Ernie
     

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     Yeah, I'm very proud that I made it twenty seconds through that, Ernie.

     I hear you onder, seeing Jello Biafra like that makes me feel old as Facebook too!

     Posted 1 year ago #
105. 

     oldguybc
     

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     Member

     Teigyr, what we did was not all that much, we took the wife & kids up to the Black Bear Diner for a good dinner. The waitresses and one guy at the diner really pickled it up from there on helping the family and that was what was so neat about it, just a bunch of people starting the ball rolling. I was just going to slip them a couple of bucks and be on our way but I just got this wild idea about feeding the kids and it sorta snowballed from there. We called our good friends Jack & Linda and they really kicked in... everyone helping out, that is what felt so good to us. That is pretty much the bottom line, it felt good.

     Posted 1 year ago #
106. 

     oldguybc
     

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     Shit, I sound like a Frank Capra movie...

     Posted 1 year ago #
107. 

     danmonaghan
     

     offline

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     Good for you, Oldguy! I especially like the fact that the innocent kids in the midst of a chaotic journey experienced kindness from strangers and a good meal. Probably rare commodities in their world.

     Did you lecture the parents on personal responsibility while you were attending to your sense of communal responsibility?
     :)

     Posted 1 year ago #
108. 

     onederfullone
     

     offline

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     okay, cheap shot aside.

     Old guy did a good thing, and the right thing, and so did others. The glaring difference between what you consider charitable is personal choice, personal responsibility absolutely should include charitable acts, but only in the manner that you would choose to. Some choose to throw change at panhandlers, some choose to donate to the foodbank, others will volunteer in a soup kitchen, write a check to salvation army, any number of personal choices to do what they feel is right.

     You, snarky little liberal, would require us to enable or support what we would not, through the city, by way of our tax dollars. Not only is it reprehensible on the face of it, but you would use the most inept, inefficient, ineffective, irresponsible method of charity ever devised. Government. About ten percent of that dollar taken from us, if that, would reach anyone in real need.

     Personal responsibility is multi-faceted, not a canned insult that you can hurl. What have you done? Why don't you champion their cause if it would so please you?

     Because you expect your nanny state nincompoops to do it for you.

     Posted 1 year ago #
109. 

     danmonaghan
     

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     "Snarky little Liberal" - at long last, an epitaph!

     Thanks, 1Der! xo

     Posted 1 year ago #
110. 

     danmonaghan
     

     offline

     Member

     Wonder, my Precious Comrade,

     If you will review the record, I have never claimed to have the answer. I have been trying to make the case that wishing the problem away, villifying the poor (f@ckups and 'innocents' alike), dreaming of shipping them off to a far off land, turning them into Soylent Green biscuits, etc. are not realistic, and that ALL of us will be better off if we take SOME sort of pre-emptive action, decide on some sort of realistic and humane solution. Unless we're all ok with descending into a third world lifestyle.

     You make a lot of revealing prejudicial assumptions, 1Der. Good thing you're so damn cute when you're stirred up, 1D. I just want to grab you by the neck and give you a noogie, Li'l Boo Boo!

     (Edited for Freudian slip)

     Posted 1 year ago #
111. 

     danmonaghan
     

     offline

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     Oh, and, last time I checked, I AM championing their cause, Pooky.

     Posted 1 year ago #
112. 

     Norse
     

     offline

     Member

     Has anyone noticed what nice responses MyBallard has to the Scoflaw article on car campers. MyBallard is so nice now it looks creepy. Hats off to the Geeky Swedes!!!

     Posted 1 year ago #
113. 

     teigyr
     

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     I think I would pay to see an on-stage debate between Onder and danmonaghan. The entry fees collected could go to the favorite charity of the debate winner.

     Not to make light of Soylent Green but if the people hadn't had proper nutrition, I don't think they would taste very good. I would also be concerned about wine pairing but since I live in hillbilly land, we have boxes in many different varieties.

     Posted 1 year ago #
114. 

     danmonaghan
     

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     Great idea, Teiger! Charities: ACLU vs. NRA

     Personally, I would probably want Soylent Green biscuits from Northern California, say Santa Cruz or Humbolt County. I would probably have to pick them up from the dispensary.

     Posted 1 year ago #
115. 

     motorrad
     

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     Count me in for a car camping spot. It will help me save up cash much faster for a house when I don't have to pay rent.

     Posted 1 year ago #
116. 

     onederfullone
     

     offline

     Member

     NRA? You really think that is a charity?

     You know, it's much better to keep your mouth shut and let folks infer that you are clueless, than to open it and prove it.

     Posted 1 year ago #
117. 

     onederfullone
     

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     nsfw, nsfk, not my cup of tea, but, the guy has some wisdom about current events.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Yna4cN5Jg&feature=fvst

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRmZ9zH-mYM

     Posted 1 year ago #
118. 

     momnballard
     

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     "and that ALL of us will be better off if we take SOME sort of pre-emptive action, decide on some sort of realistic and humane solution."

     we have some solutions already in place at facilities. they're RULES but not everyone chooses to play by them. what do we do with the rule breakers? i cannot feel "compassion" for folks that just don't feel like doing something because. there's lots i don't want to do either but that's life. and i'm curious why the passion for opening facilities in ballard? i personally think it has a lot to do with the hospital. if that's the case, then place facilities by the UW and NW hospital as well. share the "wealth."

     Posted 1 year ago #
119. 

     onederfullone
     

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     Member

     what do we do with the rule breakers?
     

     Nothing, and the ACLU will see to that.

     Posted 1 year ago #
120. 

     onederfullone
     

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     Since I have the microphone again,

     The ACLU isn't a charity either.

     Posted 1 year ago #

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