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Blood on the tracks...

(35 posts)

Started 1 year ago by cdpenne
Latest reply from MidWest

cdpenne

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Just returned from a John Prine show in Woodinville. It was a perfect night, warm with an almost full moon. Prine is, of course, moving and some would say more so now that half his throat is removed. He sang this one...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIWfoMZok4s&feature=related

It got me thinking about that woman a few weeks ago who knelt on the tracks at Carkeek and waited for the next train. I haven't really been able to shake that image from my mind even though, as some of you know, I can be pretty callous. Old trusty dark humor isn't working on this one and I still see her there.. kneeling, waiting.

I guess it's the kneeling part that gets me.

So this is a mixed metaphor of sorts. Maybe she only meant to tie her shoe because as everybody knows an untied shoe is dangerous.

Ole John is 65 now. He sings most of his songs a bit slower now. I think they are even more potent.

It really is only a half inch of water, no body should be left to drown.

Posted 1 year ago #
hummingbird

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I don't post or reply often, but this one really moved me. And I often wonder the final thoughts of people who purpose to either end their lives or find even in the moment no other way to end their hopelessness. Can only hope they find a better something or other beyond this. "It really is only a half inch of water, no body should be left to drown."
What a provocative quote that is....

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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...I often wonder the final thoughts of people who purpose to either end their lives or find even in the moment no other way to end their hopelessness.

I post, or reply, too often. Be that as it may, this one begs to be met with some of my perspective.

No one, and I do mean no one, is more selfish than when they end their life without sacrifice to another. If someone you know feels like their life has no purpose, or, are so entrapped within themselves to see 'no way out', grab them firmly, demand that they do something for someone else. They will see their purpose, and their way out.

sorry, but you must be very deliberate to drown in an inch of effing water.

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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Hey Oneder,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0KtBJXeP5k

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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Hey Oneder,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4C59bXWq_fM

Posted 1 year ago #
motorrad

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This post is proof of the too often posting. Funny, you preaching about selfishness and doing for others. You judge. But do you know this woman or even her history?
Sometimes the constant service for others is the crushing weight. Sometimes the doing for others, giving too much, results in conditions that are numbing and overwhelming. Especially the betrayal of giving to those that are wasteful or ungrateful.
This post voiced one unexpected comment and one totally expected. The people that could benefit the most from pondering human behavior in a more empathetic way judge the fastest. Best regards folks. To all.

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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Interesting motorrad.

Can one give too much? And if they do, do they then become so very selfish as to throw away everything they have left? I guess I'll leave 'the crushing weight' of service to your expertise.

I'm certain my post does more to ponder human behavior than you are prepared to acknowledge. cdpenne can point you to the path most traveled...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifp_SVrlurY&feature=related

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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We who are living presume to much if we think we know or understand the thoughts of those who choose to end their life. And we are misguided if we assume that the same or similar motivations propel these individuals. Each such act is unique. May they find what they are seeking or escape what they are fleeing; may those who survive them find some measure of comfort and solace.

Posted 1 year ago #
pennygirl

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"No one, and I do mean no one, is more selfish than when they end their life without sacrifice to another. If someone you know feels like their life has no purpose, or, are so entrapped within themselves to see 'no way out', grab them firmly, demand that they do something for someone else. They will see their purpose, and their way out.'

Actually, you're selfish for posting this 1der. It's not as cut and dried as that, and it's foolish to think that it's as easy as getting hold of someone and making them see your side of things.

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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selfish and foolish...

For daring to say what the truth of it is?

Explain why the rest of you exist, I might learn something yet, lol

Posted 1 year ago #
GAM

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A friend of mine committed suicide. At the time it devastated me. I was in complete shock and mourning. I spoke to my friend a day or two before and they acknowledged they could no longer tell what was real anymore - I knew they were at risk and was doing everything I could to keep them stable. To this day I wish they had made a different choice, but I know the choice was not about me and was not selfish. It was anguished, disoriented, pained, helpless and many other things, but selfish is not a word that would occur to me to describe it. Personal, is more apt. While I don't agree with their decision, and was working to help them make a different one, I respect it. Through their haze, it is what made sense in a weak and confused moment. I wish they had found peace a different way, but I'm glad they found peace. Yes, it hurt me (and many others), and it always will to some degree. But I also know my friend was trying to solve a problem, not create others. That's not being selfish. That's just having clouded judgement (with horrid and painful consequence, I grant you).

Posted 1 year ago #
iPlod

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"Explain why the rest of you exist,..."

Puto esse ego quia.

Posted 1 year ago #
HeardOnthe44

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I agree with GAM. From past experience as having been in both places: the kneeling one and the one to pull the kneeling one from the tracks, "selfish" is not a word I would use to explain, describe or judge. There is no "one size fits all" when you try to understand and make sense of suicide. I could write a book as to why I know and believe this and perhaps some day I will.

But oneder1 it absolutely spot on when it comes to providing one example of how you climb out of the pit of despair or help someone else: SERVICE. Put yourself and your troubles aside (become non-self important) and help someone else. It does not matter if it is in a big way or in many small ways; it is the only answer I have ever found and it works in the most magical ways.

Posted 1 year ago #
HeardOnthe44

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Thank you for sharing that GAM. I am so sorry for the loss of your friend and the pain and struggle you endured to help keep your friend "here". I do understand that struggle. For the past four and a half months, I have been working with a friend who is struggling to stay “here” for her kids after a horrific accident in which she was seriously injured and her husband killed.

Posted 1 year ago #
eric

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1der again displays his genius, i mean, presumptuous, patronizing, pissant perspective. yep, you go big guy. share your wisdom.

realize, though, that many folks have suicide in their family or past friendships. we may not give a crap about your opinion on the subject. its good to learn who the assholes are in the world around you though i guess. you stick out like a sore thumb, you wild contrarian you.

Posted 1 year ago #
stopgo

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that is exactly what I have been trying to say to you all for the past year but nobody wanted to listen. I believe you all must have been mesmerized by his youtube linking prowess. It is good to see his true colors exposed.

Posted 1 year ago #
stopgo

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvgOgt9229Y

Posted 1 year ago #
pavana

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I am grateful for your bringing suicide out of the shadows and grateful for all the points of view expressed. There were times when every response posted here could have been my own. What caused my feelings to change? The closer suicide came to my being, the deeper I had to look at what was really happening inside of me.

Judgements happen when fear separates us and we label what we do not understand “other”. In days long gone, fear caused my heart to callous over as I tried to distance myself from experiencing pain in response to an “other’s” death by suicide. Judgements regarding his act were my way of rationalizing my fright/flight response.

From the next incident, closer to my heart, I held myself apart from those who grieved saying, “I don’t know how to help.” Thinking mind creates barriers but at the core, fear is what kept me away.

When suicide came into my heart and home all barriers were blown away. I found my world eradicated, nothing left but pain in my heart. Paradoxically, from this aching emptiness has come an opening to deep compassion. As suggested, I have been rebuilding a life based on service but this time, gratefully absent of judgements. Now I know better that the deepest truth is found in our hearts and opening to that is a lifetime’s work.

Sometimes the opening comes suddenly, sometimes it comes slowly but when it comes we find the gift in loss and can let go the fear that holds so tightly to the seeming, surface truth of things. Everyone is doing the best she/he can, including those who die by suicide, including those so locked inside their judgements they cannot extend, including all of us shlepping along, trying to find the way to our hearts. Letting go of judgements begins when our hearts are broken open and we discover there is nothing missing from what is and nothing to “fix”, at which point we begin to offer each other a helping hand as we journey together in this place so full of paradox. Thanks to all.

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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wow

first of all, Eric, I hope only that you feel better, because it is foremost that we all do, and I'll let others judge the method each of us choose for ourselves.

I was informed shortly before a school day that one my of dearest friends had hung himself in his bathroom.

I lost one of the only people on this earth that truly knew what I was going through at that time in my life. We both had to deal with incredible ugliness and callousness
from our peers, and I'm saddened to this day that I failed him. I was a coward, trapped within my own survival. William, forgive me.

Now, let me address a burden no-one knows. When Columbine occurred, a part of me cheered, for William, for myself, and countless others who are willfully disenfranchised by societal bobble-heads looking to make themselves feel better at the very dear cost of another's sense of well-being.

Does that make me a bad person? Yes. Does that make me feel good, hell no.

So, how do I survive the anger and resulting guilt for how I feel day after day?

I reach, as far as I can, with open hand, not a closed fist, hoping to turn around what is a miserable existence for all of us.

Now, I'm quite used to being attacked by lemmings and bobble-heads for what I say, think, and feel. I could spare myself, like I did before, but the cost is too great.
William deserved better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i1vMK4XaPk

Posted 1 year ago #
pavana

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Onderful, I am truly sorry to learn of the losses you have had to weather, as well as all the people posting here. Life is full of loss, and beauty--the paradox again. The truly wonderful thing is how we come together in community to help each other when things are difficult. As you suggest, our culture is not as graceful in this regard as we might hope, but we who have been initiated by loss are in a unique position to offer support. There are trainings in suicide prevention called ASIST, offered for free to King County residents via Youth Suicide Prevention Program (YSPP). I highly recommend it.

Important, too, is finding ways to work through the difficult feelings that persist after trauma, when the fright/flight response no longer serves and in fact, makes the going harder. Many books address this, Jon Kabat-Zinn is one author and Mark Williams, another, who are studying mindfulness as a means of working through hardship. For you and everyone here who has posted, having the courage to address suicide, I wish the very best.

Posted 1 year ago #
MidWest

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Powerful testimony from a survivor.

Posted 1 year ago #
lifeisamazing

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one, I'm sorry for your loss. When you speak of your friend you don't sound like you are judging him and it is clear that you loved him dearly.
So many people have said things here that let us into their world and how they are touched by this tragedy.
I used to think that taking your own life was the most selfish thing in the world until I was there. Your mind is very different. Your perspective is changed. I thought that it was very selfish for someone to want me to stay. For what it's worth maybe that will help someone who is wondering how they're loved one could do it. In my experience. their mind has no room for anything but what they are experiencing, certainly not thinking of service. By that time they are too far along for that solution. And they, sadly, are not thinking of you and if they are it is not with a clear perspective.

Posted 1 year ago #
dsomers

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Iplod,

Having trouble with your phrase "Puto esse ego quia."
Latin? Portugese? Spanish?

D The linquistically impaired one

Posted 1 year ago #
HeardOnthe44

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I agree, lifeisamazing. I have found that to be true also ("their mind has no room for anything but what they are experiencing, certainly not thinking of service.")

Sometimes it takes the equivalent of a "Clarence" (It’s a Wonderful Life) jumping into the river first to bring someone out of that lost state of being to a compassionate state of being as they become aware of another being needing help.

Sometimes just asking a person what plans they have for tomorrow can give you a sense of “where” they are and give you a chance to bring them out enough to keep them here for a bit longer.

This thread reminds me of Meg Hutchinson's song “Gatekeeper” about jumpers on the Golden Gate Bridge which you can hear on her web page and read the story behind the song. I especially like the part of the song when she sings:

“Maybe every day in ordinary ways, we hold each other on
we keep each other here”

http://www.meghutchinson.com/music/index.html

Lyrics:
When the day has grown too long, the hour’s standing still
When you wonder if you could, if you will
With your toes upon the edge, with your eyes upon the sky
Tell me just these things before you fly
How are you feeling, what are your plans for tomorrow?
Will you let me make some, and after, you can do as you will
If your hand should lose the rail, your heel should lose the chord
Will everything seem fixable that did not before?
See how the sun shines on the bay, the islands over there
You could make it through today if you dare
Maybe every day in ordinary ways We hold each other on
We keep each other here
Maybe every day in ordinary ways We hold each other on
We keep each other here
How are you feeling?
What are your plans?

Posted 1 year ago #
iPlod

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dsomers, it's supposed to say "I think I had to be." in Latin.

Sort of a phrase play on "Cogito ergo sum."

What I meant to relay to 1der was that we all have no choice in the matter of our coming into existence.

Posted 1 year ago #
dsomers

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Thanks Iplod! Sometimes I can parse out Latin, but in this case there were also existing stock phrases like that in those other languages that had very different meanings than the latin, and I was struggling with the latin as well. Shoulda done more with language in school. Sigh. Oh well. At least I have a good academic background in paper mache!

Thanks again for the clarification!

D

Posted 1 year ago #
pavana

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stopgo, sometimes the self-judgements are the hardest to let go. It's a practice, finding compassion for ourselves and others. Take care.

Posted 1 year ago #
stopgo

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I feel the need to humiliate myself every time I redact a statement I post. I'm trying to learn not to do it.

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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TED is a very cool website.

Everybody should redact a statement every now and then. Gawd knows I should. Kudos SG. Now man up!

Posted 1 year ago #
pavana

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Thank you for the Meg Hutchinson song. Here is another TED talk of merit. http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/brene_brown_on_vulnerability.html

Posted 1 year ago #
Ballardemician

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Let me couch this in saying I had a buddy who blew his brains out a little more than a year ago and left his family in a lovely little hell on earth.

There is research that shows news stories and editorials about suicide that show it as a sort of tragic romantic act lead to increases in suicides. Stories/reactions that emphasize it as a bad choice with horrible ramifications cause suicide rates to drop. We have sympathy, and many of us go to dark places some times, but suicide is a STUPID choice. It's a shame when people can't or won't decide to use the resources available to help them.

Anyway it's not a movie and it's not a song -- suicide is a selfish, bad choice of raw, ugly violence that more often than not destroys a lot more than one life. For a healthy person it's the wrong thing to do and very sad when people pick the this wrong path.

Posted 1 year ago #
pennygirl

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"For a healthy person it's the wrong thing to do and very sad when people pick the this wrong path."

Ballardemician...

People who take this option don't tend to be healthy, whether it's mentally or physically. Sorry to have to state the obvious.

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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A thread has a life of it's own and the direction this one took is a surprise to me though I didn't have an expectation or intention other than to share what was for me a moving performance by a favorite artist, and offer a perhaps reason why.

I am familiar with the 'suicide is selfish' line of reasoning. Like many or most others my life has also been touched by suicide. But I have learned, rightly or wrongly, that this line of reasoning is akin to slamming a door - it allows one to shut out consideration of some other's pain. It allows one to diminish and demean that pain into a digestable portion. It protects one from delving too deep or peering through the key hole.

I'm a song man. I am moved by the lyricist. And Prine is a rare artist who can take you back through that door into the poignant and bewildering world of the other's pain.

I also like things to end where they began...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n13U4UreHg

Posted 1 year ago #
momnballard

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it would seem obvious to people that suicide as an option is plain selfish but until you have been on the other side of the fence, you really have no place to speak in behalf of those that have been. it's not an easy place to be. judging doesn't help either.

Posted 1 year ago #
MidWest

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momnballard +1

This is not a simple, or black and white subject; really it's full of circumstances, events, complications, emotions, and turmoil.

We had an elderly family member who was well along the road to a painful death from a terminal disease. That very strong willed person eventually chose to go on their own terms. This is still met with denial by some family members, and acknowledgement by others. Very divisive. There was horrible pain inflicted upon everyone involved, and the irony is: the person was going to die a painful, unpleasant death had they not taken their own life. The choice to end it gently and peacefully was so very painful for everyone else due to that person telling no one their plans. Suddenly, they were gone.

On the other hand, nearly no one in the family would have supported that decision, either. More likely, the group would have advocated for even more painkillers as the end came, making for a hazy fog of semi-existence, and that person would have wanted no part of that kind of existence at all. I've decided to let go of any judgement of the situation at all, and for them to Rest In Peace.

I cannot say what it's like to be in those circumstances.

Posted 1 year ago #