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Allowing bald eagles to be killed

(155 posts)
  1. gracie

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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46729054/ns/us_news-environment/

    This disturbs me that they are going to allow a tribe to kill bald eagles for "religious purposes." Do as they have in the past and get from the government the body parts and feathers they need - the government keeps them and they can apply to get them. Eagles are so magnificent and to kill for no justified reason is just wrong. They are no longer endangered, as article points out, but still there are laws to protect these magnificent creatures.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Ballardemician

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    I'm generally skeptical of tribes (of what are now essentially modern people) asserting rights to ancient practices that involve killing iconic animals. The world evolves (for better or worse), and so do religions. The type of fundamentalism underlying an unwillingness to adapt ancient practices (e.g. trapping and releasing an eagle minus a few of its feathers) is nearly always more of a middle-finger to the rest of society than the fulfillment of some deep-seated spiritual need.

    It's an action out of balance with the current environment, very much like the Catholic church refusing to pay for birth control that nearly all of its women use, based on Old Testament scripture advocating for re-population after the flood. Similarly, it seems extremely narrow and short-sighted to me to kill eagles in the way your hunter-gatherer ancestors did when the area was absolutely teaming with them, then drive to the supermarket and pick up some Hot Pockets. Tradition should be maintained and respected, and also adapted to the spirit of the current social environment.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. great idea

    great idea

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    they should at least make it a difficult task, say throwing a rock at the eagle.
    or maybe a bow and arrow.

    I'll bet they just shoot it oneder style though.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Rudy

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    @Ballardemician I'm thinking of a bald-eagle pinata filled with Hot Pockets. Win win?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. great idea

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    it's funny, but what's with the 'hot pockets'?

    is that a comment on the 'food desert' that exists on most reservations?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Rudy

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    I just went with the example Ballardemician provided. Nothing more.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. great idea

    great idea

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    I know Rudy, I was talking more to bm.

    I'm sure it wasn't his point, but there's probably not a Whole Foods nearby. probably some grubby little corner market with little in the way of fresh produce. where the most appealing option is....hot pockets!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. great idea

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    also, they never really ate the eagles anyway, did they? (the ancestors)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Edog

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    This is a non-issue. They have a permit, which for something like this is not easy to get, its not as if they went down to bait shop and got a a three day visitors license for 35 bucks. Furthermore, they are only taking two, and did you notice they are not on the endangered list anymore?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Thomas C.

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    And let them kill whales! And hey they should be given a permit to kill a certain amount of white men per year as reparations for nearly wiping out their ancestors!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. great idea

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    apparently Edog, you've never tried my 'eagle fricassee'

    you can't stop at just two.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Edog

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    You dumb a*s! Eagle tastes just like chicken, so serve them chicken and tell them its Eagle. Your guests will never know the difference. Plus there is less potential exposure to lead and ddt, so the after dinner conversation won't be as deadly and dull as had eagle been on the menu.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Oly

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    The fences at the zoo are there to keep the animals safe from Chuck Norris.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. gracie

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    Not endangered or not, there is no reason to kill them. And if this opens the door then what is to stop many others from killing them and once again, endangered list. I know that sounds like a stretch but seriously this is wrong. The government will provide eagle parts or feathers they have gathered from ones that have died. The tribes have done that for years. It's out and out B.S. killing these birds in the name of religion.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. Edog

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    Never mind thousands of years of tradition, or regular and accustomed hunting grounds, and ignore the blowback of nationalism the US created by stomping out a culture that might try to revise its self, Gracie thinks its wrong.

    Better take back that permit!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. cdpenne

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    Funny, I always thought beagles taste like chiken.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. Dweezil

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    Either killing bald eagles is ok and we start handing out permits to everyone, or its not ok. Culture/religion is a BS excuse to do something. There was another longstanding culture in America, but we don't allow people to own other people just because its what they used to do in the past.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Nora Bell

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    If the tribes can get a permit to kill bald eagles what's to stop them from killing other animals in the name of tradition? And as Dweezil so well pointed out, tradition is not always for the best.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. VeganBiker

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    Well if anyone tries to get a permit to shoot the Bald Eagles on the Magnolia Bluff there will be a big upset in this house!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. Cate

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    On some fundamental level I just don't understand the taking of life as part of any religious system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. VeganBiker

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    Cate +1

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Mondoman

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    As long as the animals aren't endangered, I don't see any problem with hunting them (I support the Makah desire to hunt whales). I know how hard it can be to preserve traditional cultures, and I definitely put people ahead of animals when the two clash. Of course, I'm personally pretty squeamish, but I'm hoping to work my way up to be able to clean salmon and other fish before we're all restricted to eating only Soylent Green.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. Mondoman

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    Dweezil and Nora are right -- there should be an open permitting system.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. VeganBiker

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    Mondo - wow we are so different! Soylent Green will be very far off in the distance IF we stop eating other animals and eat more organically grown plants. Soylent Green in the movie was recycled humans! Because the humans had destroyed the earth!
    Killing animals accomplishes nothing in the evolution of the human race. We have to get beyond the cave man instincts if we are ever going to be a self a sustaining species.
    And FYI, wales might just be a higher evolved beings that we are, they seem to have abilities that we haven't yet developed.
    I really will never accept a world that is populated with domesticated and genetically altered animals. We evolved here with some amazing creatures, many of them have since been killed off by us. I find that totally unacceptable.
    Killing animals is just wrong.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  25. onederfullone

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    Well, killing animals for sport is wrong.

    I kill when I hunt, or fish, and I don't waste the animal

    fwiw, Native Americans were not responsible for any species becoming endangered, or extinct. We nearly made them extinct, and should be a bit more interested in learning from them instead of dismissing them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. VeganBiker

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    oneder - please don't take my posts as dismissing Native Americans, the invasion of the USA was the worst thing that could have happened to them. I have total empathy for them. However we are now living in a different age and although that does not excuse what happened in the past it should not allow the slaughter of animals for any reason. We, as a human race do not need to do that anymore.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. Ballardemician

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    If it's just a couple of eagles maybe not so bad really, but the ritual is ancient. The people though, like it or not, are as modem as the rest of us. If the point is to connect with culture so be it, but no culture is static. As such the ritual should be adapted.

    I do like Rudy's idea of an eagle piƱata full of hot pockets - kills two birds with one stone ...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  28. Mondoman

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    Bal, it's certainly reasonable to raise those points with the folks involved, but being their culture, it's their choice how to change it, if at all.
    1d, there's some thought that the giant mammals that used to inhabit the Americas (mammoth, giant sloth, and so forth) around 10k years ago were hunted to extinction by that era's newcomers to the Americas (some of the ancestors of today's Native Americans).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Mondoman

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    vb, I'll agree with you that it looks like we evolved to eat a diet with much less meat in it than most eat today, so just about all of us could stand to eat less meat for a win/win all around. I heard something recently about someone finally developing plant-based food that really tasted like chicken, so maybe that'll help.

    With the Soylent Green, I was thinking more about the massively overpopulated world and tight government control in the world the movie portrayed. Big brains require a lot of energy to run, so there is some thought that at least periodically eating energy-dense fat-rich foods like animals was required for us to evolve big brains, before agriculture was developed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. Edog

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    I can entertain an objective discussion about the merits of killing an Eagle, albeit somewhat academic. But the idea that we as a nation can - one more time - go back on our word with group of Natives is much more offensive to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. User has not uploaded an avatar

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    What Edog said, in all 4 of his/her posts (well 3 of the 4, at least).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. oldguybc

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    TLDR ALERT!!!

    Mondo, I don't believe that statement... the amount of animals killed for food, clothing, shelter by the early inhabitants had no impact whatsoever on the demise of these animals, rather radical environmental changes did almost all of the eradication. Heard somewhere that plastic sixpack holders have killed more baby seals and birds than all the oil spills put together... and all of those factors put together are just a drop in the bucket compared to changes in water or air temperature. Dubya OKayed the opening of the flood gates of the Kalamath and raised the water temp up eleven degrees, pretty much killing all the steelhead and salmon roe in the river, seven years later they haven't recovered.
    There are three major man- made world affecting catastrophic environmental events in evidence of the 20th century, and no, the Oklahoma Dust Bowl is not one of them...

    In third place we have the destroying of uncounted millions of acres of jungle fauna in order to plant soybeans by <drum- roll please> BRAZIL! No telling what this has done to the delicate oxygen/CO2 balance of the atmosphere, we're just beginning to find out the results of this act.

    In second place we have the Aral Sea disaster which has pretty much dried up the fourth largest inland sea on earth to grow more cotton for the Soviet/Uzbek/Kazakh coffers, anyone know if they are still doing that?

    And the winner is <major drum roll and cymbal clash> CHINA! Talk about air, water and soil contamination by industry, this effort dwarfs all the countries in the world PUT TOGETHER!

    Now, anyone know how much of these efforts were fully or partly funded by US money? Good question...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. Mondoman

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    ogbc, we don't actually have enough evidence about either the inhabitants or climate 10k years ago to figure out what killed off the megafauna. Maybe you did it :) ?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. NW whippet

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    I'm part native American and grew up with these rituals. The hunting of the eagle is not a waste, nor is it only for religious purposes. It goes further as a way to keep their hunting traditions alive in the same way that Eskimos still hunt seals. The hunts are a family affair basically, and the bond with the spirit of the animals, and all things really is an important one. They know its a cycle that they are completely apart of. It's the hunt, and the situation as a family that most natives want to enjoy. Just because you can't understand it or agree with it doesn't mean that it is bad. Educate yourself to the reasons behind the rituals before making simplified complaints about them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. Mondoman

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    I appreciate your post, NW, thanks.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. great idea

    great idea

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    I have no problem upholding traditions. the only issue I have is the technology employed to achieve the means.

    I have not seen Eskimos hunt seals, but I have been on a duck-hunting excursion with a few (btw, they find 'eskimo' deragatory, at least in Alaska).
    it wasn't the duck hunt I anticipated. sure I expected firearms, but they used their motorboats as the prime weapon, either scooping them up in big nets or just running them over.

    maybe there was some family-bonding moment I missed.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. oldguybc

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    Mondo, I just get real worked up whenever I hear most of this AlGoreGreen talk... it is a little like cashing a check for three cents at the B of A, let's all save the universe by picking up our cigarette butts...
    Don't have to remind anyone of just what a beautiful area old Ballard was, like in 1850 or so, before Burke, Gilman, Cap't Ballard, Stimson, and a few others came in and strip- logged it for the shingles, now they name things after them, progress marches on...

    Besides... I was there!
    ;))

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. BIOTRON

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    Do not worry oldguybc.

    Your planet has been ruined.

    I have seen your future.

    The icecaps will melt.

    Your planet's cooling system is slowly collapsing.

    There is nothing more to be done.

    Do not let the slowness of its collapse or the violent swings between cold and warm confuse you.

    Earth's New Equilibrium is Venus.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. iPlod

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    A distillation.

    Any culture that has rituals sacred to itself has no place demeaning other cultures rituals that are sacred to them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  40. onederfullone

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    We are on the brink of global warming/ice age/calamity/something awful/dammit.

    Blame the newcomers/oldtimers/moon/sun/god/s/dammit.

    The absolute worst part of living in Seattle is that when the end comes, and the zombies appear, I won't be able to tell any of you apart. fwiw.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. iPlod

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    Fwiw, orange cats are the first to go when it happens.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. onederfullone

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    <---- trained to survive on the flesh of cromagnon smart-asses...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. cdpenne

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    Nasty... that's some f'ing old zombie meat!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. onederfullone

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8wdX_QmJ-Q

    ...it's friday...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. cdpenne

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    Personally, I think the whole native hunting thing is complete horse shit. If the hunt is all about family time then they can shoot pigeons and rats, or aren't their spirits glorious enough to be imparted to the hunter.

    On the other hand, I've seen eagles by the hundreds bouncing around on the ground squawking and shitting like a bunch of stupid pigeons, so what's the difference? Oh yeah, they have a symbolic importance.

    Maybe that's why the natives want to kill eagles - if you can't get rid of whitey you might as well burn his flag. That's some big medicine there.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. iPlod

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    Will flourish more if trained to survive on the flesh of self smugolian Ballard smart asses...

    Posted 1 year ago #
  47. onederfullone

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    lol...tries, daily

    Posted 1 year ago #
  48. pennygirl

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    You really are a stupid asshole cdpenne. Maybe we'll start calling you cdpigeon.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  49. onederfullone

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    aw, come on, pennygirl, pigeons don't deserve it. ;-p

    Posted 1 year ago #
  50. cdpenne

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    Oh look, penny isn't being nice. That's rich. F'off douchebag!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  51. pennygirl

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    If it's me you're calling a douchebag cdpigoen, I prefer the term dickwad. Thankyou.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  52. great idea

    great idea

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    I think this thread should be bumped just to highlight some of the intelligent dialogue, especially near the end.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  53. cdpenne

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    Oh, I don't know, GI. I think I brought up valid points. They even echoed yours. And the views expressed aren't necessarily my own, regarding the hunting. I could just as easily attribute them to certain friends and colleagues, but that would be giving in to the pressure of the clique, and it would also be a cop out.

    Hunting seals in Nome is a no brainer. So is fishing for salmon from here to Barrow. Killing eagles is a waste of time. If that view, or the way I state it makes me a stupid asshole in the eyes of the vapid twat, well then so be it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  54. great idea

    great idea

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    I know you did cd, originally anyway. I was just chiding you both for letting the thread turn into name-calling exercise.

    you need to let it roll off your back like a duck's feathers.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  55. pennygirl

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    I may be considered vapid by some, but I haven't lost my marbles.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  56. pennygirl

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    Just to put things into perspective here - the first Decorah pip should be happening within the next few hours!

    (Don't start watching this unless you are prepared to get well and truly hooked) :-)

    http://www.ustream.tv/decoraheagles

    Oh, and if you don't see any movement, it's because Mom's sleeping on 3 eggs and Dad's in the branch above her keeping watch. We will have eaglets within a couple of days!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  57. great idea

    great idea

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    ok, I'm hooked. packing my bags for Decorah, Iowa.

    great stream, penny. I've been watching the mother sit (angrily it appears) on the nest all morning with the sound of morning doves and the Iowa wilderness.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  58. VeganBiker

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    pg - thanks for that link.
    Our local eagles on the Magnolia bluff are in the nest so it looks like they might have a family there this year again. I wish we had a camera up that tree.
    Yesterday I was walking past the Canal Restaurant and hear/saw loads of crows under the railway bridge. Looking closer I saw a bald Eagle fly up from the water edge onto a piling and it had a small bird in it's claws. It proceed to rip the feathers off while the crows took turns in dive bombing it and occasionally counting coup! It finally flew over to the Magnolia trees with it's prey.
    If you want bird cams:
    http://www.hancockwildlife.org/index.php?topic=cam-sites

    Posted 1 year ago #
  59. pennygirl

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    Dad's now on duty.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  60. onederfullone

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    It sounds like the wind is picking up...

    ty for the link, btw ;-)

    ..camera zoomed in, and I hear a horse...

    GI must have arrived...;-)

    Posted 1 year ago #

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