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Someone sleeping in Bergen Place Park

(106 posts)

Started 1 year ago by feeltheburn
Latest reply from onederfullone

feeltheburn

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Has anyone else noticed that someone has set up camp in in Bergen Place Park? And has anyone contact police about it yet?

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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The cops are on the way over right now with a cup of coffee, a couple doughnuts, and an extra blanket.

Did you have something you wanted to pitch in?

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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I think there was a specific contact in the north precinct for thinks like this. Does anyone know who that is?

Posted 1 year ago #
Champ

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feeltheburn........seriously? This is a major concern for you? Leave the person sleep. If they are not bothering you or anyone else why worry about it, I am sure they will be gone tomorrow before the women and children come around.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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Set up camp as in pitched a tent, dug a latrine and built a fire to toast marshmallows? Or set up camp as in one person and a couple of blankets huddled against a building?

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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I've been in contact with the north precinct over similar issues, so I'll work with them on this as well. My neighbors and I are tired of transients/bums ruining out public spaces. I might be hard for some people to understand, but enforcing "quality of life laws" (such as no camping in public parks) is critical in maintaining a community's overall livability and safety.

The value of such enforcement has been established by application of the "broken windows theory" in New York and other cities. Enforcing laws regarding minor issues prevents escalation to more serious crime.

It looks like some of my neighbors want to surrender our neighborhood to the vagrants/transients. However, most of the people of Ballard want to maintain our parks/public spaces and overall quality of life---and we will.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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With all due respect to your concerns, some of which I share and some of which I do not, at 2:00 this morning when all the bars let out and the hipsters flood the street, I think that Bergen Place will be a very inhospitable place to sleep. I think the problem is self-correcting.

Posted 1 year ago #
BuffaloHawk

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Is this thread Serious

You live in a major city and this is a question. WOW .. I think Mayberry has some places for sale. If your luck runs out I hope people on a message board show more compassion when creating a conversation.

Peace, Love & Understanding

Posted 1 year ago #
Mondoman

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BH, last time I checked, New York City was a major city :) No need to accept incivility in a major city or elsewhere.

Posted 1 year ago #
ronnyj

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FTB: clearly this is not your neighborhood or your message board. Broken windows theory
From Wikipedia,

Not to be confused with the broken window fallacy in economic theory.
Broken windows in the Pruitt–Igoe housing development

The broken windows theory is a criminological theory of the norm setting and signaling effect of urban disorder and vandalism on additional crime and anti-social behavior. The theory states that monitoring and maintaining urban environments in a well-ordered condition may stop further vandalism and escalation into more serious crime.

The theory was introduced in a 1982 article by social scientists James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling. Since then it has been subject to great debate both within the social sciences and in the public sphere. The theory has been used as a motivation for several reforms in criminal policy.

The broken windows theory has received support from several empirical studies. At the same time it has also been the subject of a large body of criticism

Posted 1 year ago #
Catherine

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Number to call for this type of issue 684-CITY This gets the appropriate city and social services involved. Even the precinct officers end up calling this number. In my mind, might as well call that number yourself.

Adding: this particular person has been reported.

Posted 1 year ago #
ballardmike

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Damn those homeless people for trying to sleep!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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Get with the times, it's a park or your front lawn.

We ought to have a law against complaining about the homeless.

I can't wait. /sarcasm

Posted 1 year ago #
Norge

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Feel the burn -- it is difficult to deal with the homeless issue when we have so many vocal religious advocates for the homeless in Ballard and a City government that welcomes the homeless to Seattle -- but, it is illegal to camp in public parks. Contacting the Seattle Parks Department also helps -- the Parks Dept. works with the Police Department to oust people sleeping in parks. There is a new homeless shelter at the church on 57th and 22nd that I don't think is full yet. You could try emailing a photo to 311@seattle.gov. This is an email the parks department is supposed to respond to.

Posted 1 year ago #
ballardpilot

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FTB, I salute your efforts, but honestly - the locals and the city overlords have long ago decided that some neighborhoods are to be sacrificed and turned into festering cesspools. Ballard is at the top of their list. The city isn't going to do a damn thing, this is part of their plan. Get with the program, it's what your new neighbors want.

Enjoy your urban village, and try not to step in the feces.

Posted 1 year ago #
ks

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It's arrogant to tell a poster that this is not their neighborhood or that their concerns about violation of city laws or the state of public spaces in this community have no place on this open forum (provided at the expense of My Ballard).

The Broken Windows Theory received a tremendous amount of press when Giuliani publicized his intention to make public policy based upon it. He accepted that prioritizing enforcement of petty offenses could reduce major crime and significant reductions in crime in New York City were seen as validation of quality of life policing. However I think the more persuasive and sounder analysis was that the crime reduction realized was multifactorial and studies have continued to discredit Broken Windows doctrine.

Whether or not enforcement of petty crimes has any relationship on larger or more widespread societal disorder the fact of the matter is that we live in a society that tries to balance the provision of services for the poor and sick with laws and regulations to protect health safety and welfare of the citizenry as a whole. Both are important facets to quality of life. Homeless Americans need help, not people turning a blind eye while they live under bridges and in parks. At the same time it is not wrong to expect our local government to enforce the laws that they passed as important to public health, safety or welfare.

Posted 1 year ago #
VeganBiker

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ks +1, well said.

Posted 1 year ago #
BallardTrees

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ballardpilot, Sacrifice zone, indeed. Since moving to Ballard I have been surprised by how people in the immediate neighborhood accept "bullying/bad behavior" by people who live on the block. (This may seem off-topic, but I believe it is related to how we create community and livable neighborhoods.) Perhaps these people are just tolerant. Perhaps they are afraid. Perhaps they know of no better way to live. Most likely it is an amalgam of these and other things. I have been disappointed by this approach as it has affected my quality of life here in a very real way.

As time has gone by, I have come to believe that people don't "give a rip" around here, as you suggest, and will tolerate community degradation willingly. (Have you seen the new smoke shop, located equidistant from the high school and middle school? Oh, and the grade-schoolers will be fair game, too. Studies show that proximity of stores such as this to schools will result in more young people smoking.)

The OP originally brought up homelessness in downtown Ballard. How creatively and effectively we deal with the increasing homelessness is a measure of the true nature of this community.

Posted 1 year ago #
ballardpilot

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You can "expect" the local government to enforce laws, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to start happening.

The laws only apply to you and me. The bums and drunks get a free pass. It's official city policy. Why all the shock?

Posted 1 year ago #
SmartsyArtsy

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ks, yes, in most instances Guiliani's methods failed. Imagine fining or jailing every car window washer in NYC!! In the parks, he instituted a $1000 fine for unleashed dogs, even in parks where the Park Administrators permitted it. In 7 months, over 20 dog owners who were fined had their cases reversed thanks to a savvy dog owner public defendant-- our hero :)

In true criminal behavioral offenses I believe the theory holds true, but for activities that infringe upon some of the community, it is a waste of thought process.

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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I don't know about it worked for Guiliani...but it worked for me. The Parks Dept came and cleared the guy out. I urge everyone to keep filing complaints with the police/city on issues like this.

Posted 1 year ago #
Norge

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Glad to see the Parks Dept. acted on your complaint. I had attended the NPAC meeting a month ago and heard a speech by the Acting Superintendent of Seattle Public Parks. He was the one that stressed the importance of reporting illegal activity such as this. The Parks Dept. and SPD are suppose to work together on the issue but it appears the Parks Dept. took the action necessary to clear the person's camp out of the park. I live near the new little park on 17th between 62nd and 63rd. Heard there were some problems there already (drug sales) so I'm keeping my eye open. Now I will definitely contact the Park Dept - maybe they have a little more sway than the police department.

Posted 1 year ago #
ks

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>I don't know about it worked for Guiliani...but it worked for me

In your case the end was removing the camper/homeless individual and I suggested that you, as a citizen, had a right to ask for enforcement of city laws (and that others should not minimize your concerns or treat them as illegitimate).

However you raised the issue of Broken Windows doctrine which is really about heading off greater societal disorder by focusing on small and individually less important violations. It is broken windows doctrine that has been discredited in studies, not that obtaining small incremental residuals is possible.

If your efforts to keep the homeless from camping and loitering in Ballard is successful and is followed by reduction in tagging, assaults, meth houses and drive by shootings in the greater Ballard area it still, in itself, won't prove a causal relationship between one and the other.

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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ks...you obviously know little about statistics or causal relationships.

Posted 1 year ago #
great idea

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so feeltheburn, the man sleeping on the bench was causing all sorts of other crime then?
mugging old ladies and robbing from local churches? good work!

ks is the only one on this thread speaking logically of your predicament, so to say "(they) know little" does not behoove you.

Posted 1 year ago #
great idea

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"Have you seen the new smoke shop, located equidistant from the high school and middle school?"

what does that have to do with anything? really now.

since feeltheburn brought up 'causal relationships', here's one:
A new smoke shop opens in a place where there is 'known' or 'projected' demand for the products sold here, not the other way around. kids don't walk by the fancy glass bongs in the window and say "boy, I should really try this cannabis thing"
most are probably buying their paraphernalia online anyway.

I think it's a travesty that we have a gas station almost equidistant between the high-school and middle school. Our kids shouldn't have to see us rape mother earth to move some little plastic cars around. how will they ever learn?

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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great idea...you also know little about statistics or causal relationships.

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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Nothing casual about it. Once you've latched onto the nipple, you are as intimate as it gets...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA2mNKGBSPo

...asked and answered...

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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feeltheburn - I suggest you study the difference between correlation and causality. The most common error in interpreting research is thinking that because two items are correlated that there is a common causality. Some of the information you are presenting regarding homelessness and other activities in a neighborhood may correlate but you haven't provided any information about common causality. The reason the Broken Windows doctrine is largely disregarded now is that their have not been any studies demonstrating causality. For instance do homeless cause a neighborhood to deteriorate or do do homeless gravitate to neighborhood that are already deteriorating. The Broken Window doctrine is based on the latter, however most causality studies on homelessness have demonstrated the former. Once the homeless arrive in a neighborhood they may accelerate the deterioration but they do not "cause" it.
Now, if you are actually concerned about the homeless in our community and wish to be involved, contact First Place School. They are a school that serves homeless children ages 5 to 13 and could use your help.

Posted 1 year ago #
Norge

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Feeltheburn - As I stated previously, it is difficult to deal with the homeless issue when we have so many vocal religious advocates in Ballard that feel we cannot do enough for the chronic drunks and drug addicts that roam the streets of Ballard. They go so far as to pay off tickets for loitering so they aren't arrested, they pay off parking tickets so their vehicles don't get towed off our streets. The religious advocates have brought the homeless to Ballard to stay at church shelters and instead of returning downtown, they stay in Ballard, so now the churches have soup kitchens to feed them and we will soon be getting an Urban Rest Stop so they can shower and wash clothes. Don't let these religious zealots guilt trip you into agreeing with their point of view. Keep up your good work.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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You do realize that most of the homeless are not "chronic drunks and drug addicts"? They are far more likely to be mentally ill with a high percentage of those veterans. In a society where low income adults are not eligible for medicaid which means they have no access to regular mental health care and appropriate medication, it is hardly surprising many of the mentally ill end up on the streets.
And why should they return downtown any way? Is there a law that "downtown" is where the concentration camps for the homeless are located? Anybody who moved into Ballard in the last twenty-five years knew (or should have known) that Ballard is one of Seattle's designated "Urban Villages" with all the ramification of being an urban area. We try to make Seattle and Ballard pleasant and livable for all its citizens, but our citizenry include the homeless and mentally ill. As s true of every large city (and many smaller ones).

Posted 1 year ago #
Odin

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Can we can get some "Ballard Style" services; hot drinks, hot meals, clothing, portable shower stations, volunteer help etc. in any of the many neighborhoods in Seattle that I rarely see homeless folks?

We once had a Gig Harbor crew that had drove the several hours up to Ballard and set up a huge handout station.

If you build it, they will come. Let us share the love.

Posted 1 year ago #
Norge

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The Seattle Comprehensive Plan was drafted in 1994 and Ballard was designated a Hub Urban Village in 1997, 15 years ago, not 25 years ago and there were no provisions to deal with homeless people when the plan was implemented. There have been no revisions to the Ballard HUV plan since 1997.

Odin, you made me laugh about the Gig Harbor out reach crew. A friend of mine lives in Gig Harbor and she was telling me about a year ago that the city was having problems with the homeless panhandlers (and the like) on the street corners. These people had figured there was more money in Gig Harbor than Tacoma so they had taken buses to Gig Harbor and set themselves up in parking lots and at intersections. The city's response was to outlaw it. Those looking for handouts said they would just go back to Tacoma.

Posted 1 year ago #
Mondoman

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Cate, I think you switched "former" and "latter" in discussing Broken Windows doctrine :)
Personally, I'd like to see a proper study of why New York City doesn't have those intersection windows "washers" anymore.

More importantly, nobody knows whether our homeless are mostly "chronic drunks and drug addicts" or not, because nobody has done a proper survey. We're totally without really important info, such as rates among the homeless of drug addiction, mental illness, unemployment, panhandling, and even what percent became homeless in Seattle versus how many traveled to Seattle after they became homeless.

Posted 1 year ago #
teigyr

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There is one panhandler on 105th/Aurora who has a pimp, of sorts. I don't believe he's homeless, it's a job. There's another new one north on Aurora who sits and relaxes until cars are lined up at the light and then it's show time. I'm not so sure all the panhandlers are homeless, actually. Since it appears to be a job for some, apparently there are a few that are willing to commute.

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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Batten the hatches, man the cannons, remember the Alamo!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
Nora Charles

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First Place serves families in crisis by providing excellent culturally competent education, housing and support services enabling families to achieve permanent stability...not just the homeles or just children but whole families AND children...GREAT org!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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Norge - Metro Transit initiated a system of hubs that was tied to five Urban Centers in the city including the Balaard-Interbay Urban Center in 1985. (To be designated an Urban Center had to have 10,000 industrial jobs which we did back then!) When Norm Rice began his drive for the Seattle Comprehensive Plan in 1991 the existing Urban Centers were used to help delineate the services needed, the areas to be served and the boundaries. The Ballard Urban Village was wholly contained with the Ballard-Interbay Urban Center. This happened in several neighborhoods, most notably West Seattle. The SCP was passed by the Seattle City Council late 1993 to be implemented in 1994. Due to lawsuits filed by an organization in West Seattle full implementation was delayed several years but the Urban Centers continued to function until (and somewhat after) the Urban Villages came into play. I happen to believe that this high-density,, high-service model of urban development works well and is an efficient use of city resources. Many other cities have looked to the Seattle model to develop it in their own communities. The SCP is reviewed each year by the Seattle City Council with changes proposed and made as appropriate.

We live in an urban center which means we have services, stores, restaurants and busses in easy walking distance. To offset this we also poor parking, noisy streets and, yes, homeless.

So you know, outside my bedroom window I look down on a small pathway that runs between my building and the apartment building next door. There is an older man who frequently sleeps there, he comes late, leaves early and is quiet - I assume he is trying to slip through life unnoticed. I don't disturb him, why would I? He is only trying to live as best he can, like all of us.

Posted 1 year ago #
Norge

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I hope the old guy that sleeps in the pathway outside your bedroom window stays on his meds and doesn't carry a hatchet.

Posted 1 year ago #
GAM

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I hope the old guy stays healthy. I'd say he adds an extra layer of security - he's obviously invested in the place now and is an extra pair of eye and ears in case real trouble comes 'round. If it were me I'd chat him up and offer him some food from time to time.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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I hope he stays dry tonight.

Posted 1 year ago #
stopgo

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OMG. someone is sleeping in the park? we better go tell on him right away.

Posted 1 year ago #
Ernie

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I hope the old guy that sleeps in the pathway outside your bedroom window stays on his meds and doesn't carry a hatchet.

Same could be said for many of our neighbors who have a house.....

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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...carry a hatchet...

Damn, I need to get another CWP???

Seriously, beyond max hyperbole. Just wait until tomorrow. May Day becomes Mayhem day.

Fun times for all. /sarcasm

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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Mayday 1derfull1? Isn't that when little girls in frilly dresses go through the neighborhood leaving bouquets on the doorstep and then dance around the Maypole?

Posted 1 year ago #
ks

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I'm not a statistician. My background is law and policy. Perhaps you can explain what you feel I don't understand about statistics and causal relationships as they apply to broken windows doctrine. Have you heard of of the saying "post hoc ergo propter hoc"? It means "after this therefore because of this." It is a logical fallacy because the temporal relationship between the first and second events does not mean and cannot establish itself that the first event caused the second event. That's all I am saying.

Posted 1 year ago #
Cate

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ks - I spent part of my life as a research analyst and know my way around statistics. Social policy is not my field but I read a lot of as I work largely with children/families in poverty. Statistically it is easy to correlate two things - that is to compare them and find similar patterns. It is difficult to demonstrate causality, that one caused the other. In the case of broken window theory we do not know if the homeless arrived first in the neighborhood which caused deterioration resulting in the "broken window" or if the "broken windows" and neighborhood deterioration started first and created a space where the homeless felt comfortable. The nature of both neighborhood gentrification and deterioration is such that the causes are probably multi-factorial and have much to do with social policy and cultural norms as they actually do with homeless or deterioration. Before we blame neighborhood deterioration on the influx of (homeless, drugs, mentally ill, a race other then your own, etc.) it is helpful to ask why this particular neighborhood. At some level of governance were there policy decisions made that favored certain neighborhoods or groups of people over others? Did patterns of immigration into certain neighborhoods play a role? And so forth. From what I have read neighborhoods do not decline or gentrify because of one identifiable cause in most cases (barring such things as building a freeway that cordoned off one community, or a large lake that is a physical barrier between neighborhoods for instance). Causation is way more complex then correlation.
The logical fallacy with the Broken Window Doctrine was that fixing broken windows and such caused the re-gentrification of the community.

I wish we could find simple cause and effect solutions for societal problems, it would eliminate the work I do which would be grand

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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ks...you apparently know little about law as well.

Posted 1 year ago #
pennygirl

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Cate is on a roll! That gal knows her stuff.

Posted 1 year ago #
ks

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Thanks Cate. That was a very good explanation. I was being a bit disingenuous in asking though. I was mostly interested in demonstrating that FTB would be unable or unwilling to explain. Childish attacks and conclusory form responses like "___ you apparently know little about __" are, in my experience, pretty standard for people who can't defend a position.

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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ks...you apparently know little about defending positions.

Posted 1 year ago #
cdpenne

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Next feeltheburn is going to start extolling the benefits of 'pumping you up'!

What a NOB!

Posted 1 year ago #
feeltheburn

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cdpenne...you obviously know little about nobs.

Posted 1 year ago #
Compass Rose

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Let's get back to the topic at hand.

Ballard is turning into a homeless ghetto. Please discuss.

Posted 1 year ago #
BallardTrees

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Watching Ballard's devolution (that's how it appears to me) has given me food for thought. I moved here partly because I fell for the hype about the possibility of a monorail going up 15th, which would result in the strip clubs being replaced with establishments more interesting to me. (Has anyone followed-the-money to see who profited off that escapade in "civic engagement"?) I discovered scary neighbors, uninviting public spaces, drug dealers in cars, business establishments flipping like dominoes overnight... I feel the aura of Aurora Avenue winning here.

Posted 1 year ago #
Odin

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BallardTrees, I love your photo but your doomsday assessment is a bit harsh. I wouldn't trade this neighborhood for any other in Washington, Oregon, or Idaho.

Posted 1 year ago #
onederfullone

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Well, sometimes reality is a bit harsh, fwiw.

Posted 1 year ago #
ballardpilot

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Odin, BallardTrees is spot-on.

Ballard used to be a nice, quiet, relaxed neighborhood, where a nice mix of seniors, families and working folks lived a pretty easy, convenient life. Now it seems to me to be increasingly an urban dystopia, with a quality of life in freefall, and every indication is that it's rapid decent is only going to accelerate. I used to be proud of this area, now when I have friends and family visit, I have to constantly make excuses for what they see. Ballard just gets more scummy and filled with hassles every day. If I were looking for a place to live, I'd steer very, very clear of this neighborhood. It breaks my heart what's been done to this neighborhood - bums are bars are all it's about now.

Posted 1 year ago #
Alferd Packer

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I've seen a lot of change in the 9-1/2 years I've been around Ballard, but I think you could say that about almost any neighborhood in Seattle metro area. I think drivers are less patient and more distracted. Tempers flare at almost nothing these days. The Real Change vendor I buy from got beat up and robbed the other day as he was packing up. And yeah, there are definitely more homeless now than then.

Ballardpilot says: "... urban dystopia, with a quality of life in freefall, and every indication is that it's rapid decent is only going to accelerate." At least some of that may be due to crap economic times. Heck, even my family still living in the wilds of rural North Dakota have made similar statements about their "town" and the progression from what it once was.

Oh how I miss Archie McPhee -- two t-shirts spring to mind: "Ballard welcomes its new Condo Overlords" and "Ballard: a sleepy drinking village with a condo problem".

Posted 1 year ago #
great idea

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I think Ballard had gotten better over the past ten years myself.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better!

Posted 1 year ago #

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Someone sleeping in Bergen Place Park

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