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Someone sleeping in Bergen Place Park

(106 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by feeltheburn
  • Latest reply from onederfullone
  1. Oly

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    Thirty tears ago Ballard was a sleepy little neighborhood. The were plenty of homeless people of the street drunks variety, not so many that were just down on their luck. Old vacant broken down buildings were scattered about. We had a small tired library. The schools were in terrible shape. Athletic fields were dirt and rocks.

    Now there are more people and less parking. More twenty somethings and fewer Scandinavians. We lost some beloved business but gained many more favorites. Juvenile crime has decreased. Major crimes in 2010 are the same as 1976 when the population was significantly less. Homicides are lower than they were in the fifties. The number of multicultural young families is increasing after the white flight of the seventies.

    Yes, there have been many changes over the years for the better.

    The biggest change has come to Ballard Avenue.

    Ballard Ave was a collection of taverns, fishing industry business and small dumpy shops. There was parking. The bars were O'Leary's (now the free weight room at OAC), Silver Spot/Engle's Fish Knot (the Old Town), The Owl (Conner Byrnes), The Sunset, Club Tavern/Borge's Place (Lock and Keel), Trader Vans (Bad Alberts), and the Melody Tavern (The Tractor). Except O'Leary's a good restaurant was hard to find.

    Now we have to park and walk a bit (not a bad thing) and we can pick between a great selection of restaurants, pubs and bars. There has been new construction to replace the old deteriorating buildings. The car lot is gone. There are new shops.

    If you think Ballard is a homeless infested, Aurora copy, crime ridden neighborhood then it's time to pack your bags and move to the burbs.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. cdpenne

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    Every time some retarded blow hole starts ranting about Ballard being overrun by homeless people, two things become evident: 1) the blowhole is new to Ballard; and 2) the blowhole knows absolutely nothing about the history of Ballard and apparently doesn't care to learn.

    There are, of course, people who are exceptions to this. Several of them post their opinions about how 'overrun' Ballard has 'become' regularly and they even go so far as to blame certain people for this malaise. And by their own accounts, they have been around long enough that they should recognize the gross fallacies in their statements.

    What can one say about these people? Willfully, intentionaly ignorant comes to mind and I have a hard time thinking of an uglier human trait.

    I can walk through Ballard Commons on a sunny afternoon and reach the other side and say to myself 'Ballard is overrun with bums'.

    Or I can spend an afternoon reading the oft stated and sometimes approved statements on MyBallard and say to myself 'Ballard is overrun by Stepfords'.

    Or I can read Oly's comment above and realize neither is true.

    Cheers, Oly, and well done. You have made my day.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. Compass Rose

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    Good perspective, Oly.

    CD, to be fair, one's perspective on what Ballard is and how it has changed is naturally informed by how long they've lived here. I've only lived in Ballard for six years, so obviously I don't have any experience of it being the way Oly describes. You can't fault people for that.

    My perception of Ballard since I've lived here is that it's changed in some ways for the good, in some ways not so much. And I do think Ballard is moving toward becoming somewhat of a homeless ghetto (build it and they will come). By saying that, it doesn't mean I lack empathy or don't understand that most homeless people are mentally ill and in need of support and services. But I don't at all agree with supporting homelessness as a "lifestyle choice," as our moronic mayor and the proto-anarchists at SHARE/Wheel think it should be.

    But yeah, it does bother me to walk through Ballard Commons and increasingly see more garbage, more people hanging around doing nothing constructive, more transients and addicts.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. Edog

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    I don't know. Oly's comments provide great perspective, but are only slightly more detailed than a compare and contrast of platitudes. With the thesis that Ballard is not a carbon copy of 99. That ball is high and away.

    As a relative newbie, I like to hear the details Oly provides but that I did not live here over the course of my life seems kind of irrelevant. For those who have lived near Ballard Commons over the past 5 years, as I have, there is reason to be concerned and its changed a lot in that time. Not that I agree with the thought of the OP, but there is a element that uses the Library and Ballard Commons as hub that no one should turn their back on.

    I think the thing to recognize about the homeless population is how varied it is. On the days when the park is being utilized by various groups of vagrants, you can really see differences. I'm not sure how to describe the element I see and differentiate it from homeless overall, but when I see it, it drawls a visceral response from me.

    For example, last Sunday late afternoon, I saw two woman walking north past the library turn left onto 57th all done up either ending their day or starting their night. And I see some vagrant really eye ball them totally shift his direction. See he was heading south past the library a more than few paces past 57th, and suddenly he heads west instead of south and the guy really has to double back to do this. Its like a light went on in his head. His eyes clearly on them like a dog's on a ball. I don't know he was going to break the law, but it simply did not feel right. It was obvious to me his every step was designed to approach them and put himself in a position so he could engage them from the back quickly get in front of them and do it all with a bit of surprise. So I stopped wondering if I'm going to have to ditch my take-out ask what's going on. Unbeknownst to any of us, the women get in their car just as this dude was trying to cut in front of them. So there you have it, last Sunday at Ballard commons.

    Was Ballard like that in broad daylight 20 years ago?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. Compass Rose

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    What's "OP," Edog?

    Interesting that you see such differences between the "various groups of vagrants" in the park. I'm not sure what you mean by that.

    I walk past or through that park almost every day and there are homeless people who have been hanging out there and living in the area literally for years. That doesn't suggest to me that they're doing anything to improve their situation, and possibly they're not getting the help they need to do that.

    And the more that exists, the more it will draw other transients and vagrants. Add to that the Urban Rest stop that's being built and the Compass housing project, and the result is that a section of Ballard is increasingly becoming a homeless ghetto.

    As for that scenario you described, it speaks to my concerns as a woman who's often walking through that area alone, sometimes early in the morning. I don't feel particularly safe and if it's dark, will take a detour around that area. I felt much safer living in New York City.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. cdpenne

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    Yes, Edog, In fact Ballard might even be better now as far as that goes.

    You can walk down Ballard Ave on Friday night now even if you can't park there. Before the days of the new Hatties and the Tractor you could park in the middle of Ballard Ave, but women I knew wouldn't walk down it and definitely not alone.

    It is unfortunate that the Commons has become the gathering place. I am always wary when I go there with my daughter, but I would be greatly surprised if a count of homeless people in Ballard differed greatly from 20, 30, or even 50 years ago. I would be less surprised if the number actually decreased.

    As for the extremely tired and misquoted movie line, what exactly shouldn't be built? Parks? Libraries? The homeless people are already here in more or less the same numbers they have always been here in. They are concentrated in the Commons for several reasons, one of which is proximity to people with money.

    People seem to have little understanding of the purpose of charity.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. Compass Rose

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    Oh please, CDpenne. What type of "charity" are you referring to, exactly? Giving money to panhandlers? Or donating to organizations like the food bank? Because those are very different things.

    I didn't say anything "shouldn't" be built. I said that putting in services for homeless people - i.e. Urban Rest Stop, etc. - will attract more homeless people. That's pretty obvious.

    There may well be fewer homeless people in Ballard than there were 50 years ago. I didn't live here then so I have no idea, and don't really care whether that's true or not. What I do know is that the numbers seem to have increased in the past five years.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. User has not uploaded an avatar

    Norge

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    I wasn't going to post to this but given cdpenne's reference to me, I will. I have lived at my house in Ballard for 26 years. My brother bought this house in 1969 and my parents last house they bought was in Ballard in 1976. I grew up in Shoreline, I am of Norwegian descent and spent a good amount of time in Ballard in the 50's and 60's since my father was a commercial fisherman. There have been a lot of changes in Ballard throughout the years some bad, some good. I am glad to see more diversity in nationalities in Ballard, along with the diversity in restaurants. I do miss the mom and pop stores (and some of the Scandinavian shops) that used to be in Ballard, including Johanssen's and the meat market on 65th and 20th. Ballard has always been a working man's neighborhood, not in the least pretentious and that has changed. Given the dramatic increase in population, we are in dire need of more parks, pocket parks for the residents to enjoy. And Ballard has always had their share of drunks (including fishermen), they used to roam from bar to bar on Ballard Avenue. Whether or not they were homeless I don't know, I think they used to live aboard the ships they worked on when they were back in port. And yes, cdpenne, I do feel the neighborhood is being overrun by the homeless -- the chronic drunks and drug addicts. Of course, there are the mentally ill but until we can actually require the mentally ill to take their medication, I don't feel we are safe around a lot of them--some yes, but not all. We have given a lot to the homeless -- those that have wanted help most likely have received it. Those that won't comply with any rules whatsoever have refused shelter because they can't have their dope or booze. The Safe Camper Program that was established for the countless homeless families has one car, a single female. I'm sure the rest won't sign the contract because they won't abide by the terms. So how much farther do we bend over before we wake up to the fact that we can't help them all. They won't accept it. And those are the people I don't want in Ballard.

    We all have different opinions on this issue but I think those that live farther away from the core of Ballard see things differently than those that live in the midst of it.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. Compass Rose

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    "Those that won't comply with any rules whatsoever have refused shelter because they can't have their dope or booze. The Safe Camper Program that was established for the countless homeless families has one car, a single female. I'm sure the rest won't sign the contract because they won't abide by the terms. So how much farther do we bend over before we wake up to the fact that we can't help them all. They won't accept it. And those are the people I don't want in Ballard."

    Bingo.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. Oly

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    I just don't see how we are being overrun by homeless people. Even though I live in the Sunset hill area I go downtown daily to shop, eat, drink, work out, get a hair cut, check out books, get gas and etc... Some days I don't see any homeless or crack head looking folks. Some days I see the usual three to five hanging at the commons or in front of the library. There was the group hanging out by the old Denny's, haven't seen them lately.

    In the late seventies it wasn't unusual to be accosted by a derelict on Ballard Ave, Except for the guy selling the spare change at Bartells I can't remember the last time I was asked for spare change.

    Where are the massing hoards of homeless?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. Edog

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    The large groups I see are somewhere between Ballard commons and behind the lockspot.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. Rudy

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    Compass Rose, OP = "Original Poster" or the first post of this thread.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. Edog

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    I just got off the 17 on market between there 24th and 57th. I saw at least 5 homeless guys. Harmless but had I actually been looking I'm sure I could have found 5 more without trying to hard.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. great idea

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    "It was obvious to me his every step was designed to approach them and put himself in a position so he could engage them from the back quickly get in front of them and do it all with a bit of surprise. "

    oh edog, he was probably going to ask them out on a date. maybe he was looking for a pal to go see "the hunger games" at the majestic.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Norge

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    Oly - do you think being a man or woman makes a difference in their perspective toward the homeless? I do. I don't think a homeless man would turn around on the street and follow you up the block like Edog saw last Sunday. A clerk at the Ballard Market told me that she was out in her car at lunch hour one day writing a card to her mother and heard a chopping sound behind her car. It was a homeless man hacking away at the telephone pole with a hatchet. She said she was actually too frightened to get out of her car and go back into the store while he was chopping on the pole. She stayed in her car until the police came.

    Do you think going down mid-day makes a difference rather than going down early in the morning versus late at night or even after dark? I've watched the police roust the homeless from sleeping in the bushes at St. Al's before the kids get to school. I used to stop on my way to work to get cash at the Key Bank now on Market around 7:00 a.m. I stopped doing that when problems began surfacing around the 7-11. Now I go out of my way and go to Holman Road. I never had a problem riding the 15 home from downtown regardless of what time of day. It's been pretty sketchy after 7:00 p.m. for a long time now. Not sure how the D-line will affect that--hopefully for the better.

    I get asked for spare change (supposedly for food) all the time--when in fact they don't want food, they want the money to buy their drugs or booze.

    I think the police are extremely lenient when it comes to the homeless and I would like to see a little more accountability on behalf of the police. But what good does it do when the religious zealots here in Ballard see to it that the transients' tickets for loitering are paid off or the car campers on our streets, not theirs are also paid off.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. cdpenne

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    Compass, I was going to add some thoughts on the more metaphysical aspects of charity and giving to the less fortunate but ran out of time before I had to leave. Now I've thought better of it.

    Anyway, Norge does a fine job of summing up the crux of the matter as you have already noted.

    The question arises for communities and individuals - should I continue to give when it doesn't seem to do any good? And just becuase that question has been answered once or a hundred times doesn't mean it won't be asked again tomorrow.

    Shall we cut off all services towards all homeless people because we no longer wish to provide services to those who only take advantage of it?

    Once we have precluded the obvious abusers of our charity from receiving anymore, what will we do with these people?

    I live as close if not closer to the commons as Norge does. I walk around often. I go Stone Gardens. I walk around Adams and the community center daily. My history in Ballard and lower Ballard specifically, is going on 21 years now.

    The Commons park itself, and it being a concentration point, is new but I do not see a huge increase in numbers of drug addicts, car campers, homeless, etc. Nor do I see that walking Ballard, Lower Ballard, or any of the surrounding areas has gotten more dangerous. I think a case could be made that it has gotten safer.

    With a dramtic increase in population density there have been many benefits and some detriments. A rise in the number of derelicts (only one type of homeless) should be expected proportional to the rise in population but it simply hasn't happend.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Norge

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    cdpenne - When I was 10 years old my folks brought us in to Ballard to trick or treat all on our own -- they would meet us when we were done at Mannings. We would hang out in Ballard while my father worked on fishing boats, run amok among the woods surrounding the locks or head over to the library. Yet you say you are wary when you walk with your daughter through the Commons but you feel it has gotten safer. You have been here only 21 years yet you say that most likely we have less homeless in Ballard then we did 20, 30 or 50 years ago. Let me know when you let your daughter walk through the Commons or go to the library on her own to check out a book.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  18. Edog

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    This is not about more or less services for the homeless. We know more is being built.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  19. BuffaloHawk

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    Lets occupy the old Fred Meyer on 85th & 3rd.. I will be wearing the Nikes and hand me down Lands End from Goodwill')

    Posted 1 year ago #
  20. pennygirl

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    Well, some of them are downright scary and some are just trying to get by in this crazy world. It's the same the world over. It's starts getting tricky when you paint them all with the same brush. Many people are just a paycheck away from homelessness. If that happens, what do they do? Where do they go? I think if it was me I'd prefer to take my chances in Ballard rather than downtown or under some underpass on the way to the airport.

    Edog...as for the homeless bloke who doubled back and followed the women - unfortunately, women are subjected to this type of thing. Back when I actually used to go out as a single gal with friends (in London) we were harassed by all manner of people. The homeless, Chavs, Business suits, Hells Angels, drunken old men. That's why it pays to walk in least a pair and always be on alert.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  21. BuffaloHawk

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    Methinks Edog's dog would Sh*.t more in the real world beyond the keypad ;)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  22. Edog

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    My dog poops plenty on myballard and in ballard.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  23. cdpenne

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    Norge, pick up any history book and you can get a pretty good idea of the mix of people in Ballard for your lifetime and beyond.

    People used to let their kids do all kinds of things in all kinds of crazy places. It was expected. It was also expected a cetain number of them would die so they had more than one just in case. That is a topic for another discussion.

    I would wager that the Commons park now isn't all that different than the waterfront used to be. If you think otherwise, then your dad did a pretty good job of shielding you from it.

    Regardless, you have decided that a bunch of religious zealots are ruining your life because they perform charitable acts. And you have decided that the Urban Rest Stop will further ruin your life even though you don't even live within a stone's throw of it. And you have railed against the efforts to host the tent encampement at SPU even though you don't live anywhere near that. You have a political agenda which speaks very clearly about who you are and what you believe.

    I don't give a damn if this is your second lifetime here. I'd sooner spend an afternoon playing guitar and smoking dope with the president on a bench at the Commons than spend another evening listening to your regressive blather.

    You really should consider moving, because if you don't like what Ballard has changed into thus far, I can pretty much guarantee you won't like in any more in one year or five.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  24. Edog

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    Oh that's rich. Hey CD how many blocks above 85th do you live?

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Norge

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    I find it interesting that when you don't like someone in your neighborhood your response is for them to move out.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  26. cdpenne

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    Merely a suggestion Norge. Couldn't the same be said for your approach. I bet a few of those homeless folks you think don't deserve aid anymore went trick-or-treating with you.

    And as for you spEdog, I live just a couple blocks from you. So where does that put me? Shoreline maybe? Dumbass.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  27. pennygirl

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    Jesus Christ. Shut up all of you. Does everyone here have their home and their health? Any other massive problems on the horizon? If not, be thankful for what you have and quit facebooking moaning. However bad you think it is, there's someone out there who is in much worse shape. Happy Cinco.

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Norge

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    Who made you forum monitor? No one is asking you to read or respond to this topic. There have been many times that I've found your posts to be absurd or uninteresting so I just quit reading them, I don't get on a soapbox and tell everyone to shut up.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  29. Cate

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    Happy Cinco to you Penny and well said (Do they celebrate Cinco in Wales?).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  30. pennygirl

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    Sorry Norge, but I didn't get on a soapbox. You did. I apologize if I am absurd and uninteresting, but this subject has been debated forever on this forum. Forever. I was merely trying to point out that 99% of us who are trying to debate this problem don't actually have any idea of what the people are actually going through. That in itself probably disqualifies us from knowing exactly what we are talking about. At least cdpenne had the balls to call me a vapid twat.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  31. pennygirl

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    You too Cate! Wales only celebrates all things Wales. (No Cinco) :-)

    Posted 1 year ago #
  32. cdpenne

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    Just another day here on "As the Stomach Churns".

    But this one "At least cdpenne had the balls to call me a vapid twat" has to score me some points somewhere. Where is that 40 watt light bulb Great Idea when you need him. Hasn't he volunteered himself to be the score keeper?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  33. Mondoman

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    cd, it seems that you personally contribute to the less fortunate, and I salute you for that. Perhaps you are one who does so unconditionally, and that's fine with me. I happen to believe that conditional charity (i.e. the recipient assuming some sort of obligation upon receipt of charity) is most effective with the homeless, and think that the tent city encampments seem to work OK for that reason.

    However, it just seems like common sense to me that homeless support services attract more homeless, and that they should be located in the same areas that we expect the homeless to become housed. Ballard's high rents make the latter quite unlikely here. In addition, I'm concerned that the two current building projects that have attracted much local opposition are being built by organizations based outside our neighborhood (unlike e.g. Ballard Food Bank), and without a clear rationale or community input as to siting. Finally, they are doing this with taxpayer money rather than with their own resources. I would think that the use of taxpayer money qualifies all taxpayers to comment on the use (sorry, pg :) ).

    Posted 1 year ago #
  34. pennygirl

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    Maybe Norge will allocate you some points cd. I doubt it though. So much for me trying to be the voice of reason for once. (Even though I said 'shut up')

    Posted 1 year ago #
  35. GAM

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    I thought the agencies building the low income housing are city-wide agencies. It would make sense that they distribute their projects throughout the city. And if my tax dollars are paying for it, it's hard for me to argue with it being constructed near me.

    Whether that best serves the homeless is another issue entirely. Point well taken that Ballard is no longer the land of affordable real estate (thank goodness it still was when I purchased!)

    I've heard said that the strongest communities include all income brackets, which would mean having low income housing, affordable housing, and, yes, homeless shelters. So the problem would seem to not be the homeless shelters. What we need is affordable housing.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  36. GAM

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    pennygirl: your efforts are noted and appreciated

    Posted 1 year ago #
  37. Ernie

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    There have been a lot of changes in Ballard throughout the years some bad, some good.

    Doesn't this just about sum it up? Here and pretty much everywhere else in the country, it's the cycle of life and all that....

    Posted 1 year ago #
  38. pennygirl

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    Mondo...

    I am bowing out of this conversation. I shouldn't have said 'shut up'. Then again, where I come from, it really isn't considered rude. More like 'behave yourself' or 'calm down'. Why I feel the need to explain myself is beyond me.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  39. Mondoman

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    pg, you're the welsh voice of reason and always welcome, even when you're not quite right... :)

    Posted 1 year ago #
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    Norge

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    For those of you following homeless issues, tent cities, etc., Seattle is looking to modify its land use policy to facilitate the establishments of encampments for homeless person on private and public property. This is the link to the notice, but since I'm not good at picking up and forwarding links, I have cut and pasted the notice itself below.

    http://web1.seattle.gov/dpd/luib/Notice.aspx?BID=715&NID=13626

    Pursuant to SMC 25.05.340 and WAC 197-11-340

    The Department of Planning and Development (DPD) is proposing to amend the Land Use Code (Title 23) to permit transitional encampments for homeless individuals to locate as an interim use on sites owned or operated by the City of Seattle or private owners for a period of up to six months, and within the following zones: Industrial zones, Downtown zones, except for Downtown zones defined as residential, Seattle Mixed zones, Commercial 2 (C2), Commercial 1 (C1), Neighborhood Commercial 3 (NC3) and Neighborhood Commercial 2 (NC2) zones. The proposal includes the following requirements:

    · Create a ”Type 1” Master Use Permit (non-appealable and not subject to public notice) that would have a six month term (compared with the existing 4 week limit on Type 1);
    · Require a minimum of 12 months after a transitional encampment permit has expired before a new permit on the same site could be issued;
    · Allow maximum of 100 occupants and require 100 square feet of land per occupant
    · Require a plan to address site management, maintenance and security;
    · Require compliance with the same health, safety, and inspection requirements that have been
    established for encampments on sites owned or controlled by religious organizations;
    · Establish parking requirements for encampments if they are not located on sites owned or controlled by religious organizations ( 1 space for each vehicle used as shelter and 1 space for each 2 staff members on-site at peak staffing times); various exceptions to parking requirements in the existing Code would apply;
    · Encampment use must be located at least 50 feet from any residentially zoned lot – sites may be closer than 50 feet to residentially zoned lots if encampment is set back at least 50 feet and landscaping, fencing or similar buffer is added;
    · Sites must be 7,500 square feet in area or larger;
    · Site must be located within one-half mile of a transit stop;
    · Sites must be located at least one-half mile from any other site with a permitted transitional encampment use;
    · Encampment use must be located outside of wetland, wetland buffer, steep slope, steep slope buffer, and fish and wildlife habitat conservation areas (includes area w/in 100’ of shorelines) regulated by the City’s regulations for Environmentally Critical Areas;
    · Encampment use cannot displace or occupy an area that is used to meet required code provisions for an existing permitted use, such as area for required parking or setbacks;
    · Community outreach requirements to give neighbors advance notice of encampments, together with specific operations standards to be implemented by operators of each encampment, would be added by Director’s Rule; authority to make specific rules would be added to the Code.

    ENVIRONMENTAL DETERMINATION

    After review of a completed environmental checklist and other information on file, DPD has determined that the amendments described above will not have a probable significant adverse environmental impact, and has issued a Determination of Non-Significance under the State Environmental Policy Act (no Environmental Impact Statement required).

    How this might affect the Ballard neighborhood I don't know yet but I think this is a change that will allow the City to put up a tent city on property in an industrial zone owned by the City or on private property. This zoning issue was the hang up for creating the tent city in the SODO neighborhood last year.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  41. onederfullone

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    Mile-wide path to enabling 'occupy' forces.

    At least it requires approval. lol

    Oh well, like pennygirl said. SamTomFrankUnion.

    It's not like our opinion matters anymore. Clearly.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  42. Mondoman

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    Gotta love the "non-appealable and not subject to public notice" part. Does this mean Seattle "process" is no more?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  43. Oly

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    2011 crime statistics for Washington.

    Seattle didn't crack the top ten cities in Washington for the number of crimes per 1,000 residents. Cities with higher crime rates include Gig Harbor, Puyallup and Spokane. Tukwilla is number one.

    King County isn't in the top five in the overall crime for counties category. The most crime ridden county is Spokane.

    If violent crimes are separated from the overall crime rate then Seattle moves up the list but is still behind Tacoma, Wapato, Spokane, Shelton, Tukwilla and Yakima.

    Is the increase in the homeless population leading to increased crime or is it some Ballard folks just don't want to be look at them?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  44. onederfullone

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    Key words.

    Reported crimes.

    Secondary, actual convictions for reported crimes.

    I'm not the least bit surprised that the data reflects that reality.

    Third, the red carpet establishes the undeniable immigration from other regions, not just within this state, but from all over the country.

    Lastly, lies, damn lies, and statistics. I don't give a crap about how some will use them, especially when they seek the lies and ignore the limitations of their data.

    Unemployment at 8.1%? lmfao. Statistically speaking, lol, absolute lies, again.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  45. great idea

    great idea

    offline
    Member

    "Lastly, lies, damn lies, and statistics"

    yeah if only some bonehead actually let the pollster do his job he wouldn't have to make things up.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  46. onederfullone

    onederfullone

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    what is 'the pollster's job', GI?

    do you know?

    Data. It is data. Your job is to define it's value.

    Unless you are a true bonehead.

    Not saying you are. /sarcasm.

    Posted 1 year ago #

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