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Daily news for Seattle's Ballard neighborhood |
saffythepook
offlineMember
Are people seriously lobbying for a subway when we've already invested billions into a nascent light rail system that can be extended relatively economically? Does the fact that a good portion of the light rail system is undergound even register? Does anyone believe that adding yet another mode to the already too-large mix (bus, trolley, light rail) will make things better? Did we learn nothing from the monorail fiasco?
Color me baffled.
Cheese
offlineMember
Seriously, I know. The Other Coast Cafe or even Jimmy John's is better.
Though I do agree that an underground train is a non-starter in these non-Victorian times.
iPlod
offlineMember
Yep, above grade or below grade rapid transit = public benefit.
On grade rapid transit = tax dollars sucked from your wallet with no purpose other than than to satisfy narrow private agendas.
pixlpete
offlineMember
I disagree. Subway, Monorail, Magic Carpet; really? Jeez. Invest in effiecient, clean busses.
phoo
offlineMember
I think a subway is a pretty good idea, but the bread is really too carby for me. I might come around to the idea if they got more wrap options or a *really good* whole wheat.
ballardpilot
offlineMember
These idiots apparently just arrived (on a slow boat from New York City). Their "subway" may looks curiously exactly like a monorail I think we voted for and funded several times.
Novalis
offlineMember
I'd like a order a italian sub and meatball with swiss and a large diet coke ...
oops it moved on from 22nd and nw market st.
Novalis
offlineMember
err... double post, was hungry
NW Native
offlineMember
Clearly none of you even bothered to read what their mission is, or you wouldn't be popping off so ignorantly.
The group exists simply to promote expansion of the current light rail system as quickly as possible, in a completely grade separated fashion. It is their position that the city is committed to light rail, so we should get it built out as soon as possible, not wait for regional funding, and not drag our feet any longer. They are currently promoting a line from Ballard to West Seattle through downtown.
Educate yourself or continue to look foolish, your choice.
Ballardguy
offlineMember
I agree a line would probably be a good idea but to get it going as quickly as possible is the same way the monorail group screwed us all out of over 120 million in money and property
saffythepook
offlineMember
With all due respect, NW Native, I read the printed literature this group has been distributing around Ballard as well as every post on the front page of the seattle subway site before starting this thread. Nowhere on that page does it state that this is intended to be a modified implementation of the existing light rail system. Only when you dive into the older pages does that come out that while this system can be integrated with existing grade-level light rail, it's intended to be completely underground, which is largely the same rose by another name. The entire premise seems to be that it's just as expensive to build a grade-level dedicated right of way than it is to bore, which I think is nuts. Exhibit A is the fact that every road in Seattle that's gone on a "road diet" has created a dedicated right of way right down the middle of the street for nothing more than a turn lane. For what amounts to the price of new striping, all the necessary real estate can be procured for a grade-level frequent-service light rail system at the expense of a modest reduction in street parking or traffic capacity. To me, this group seems to be in favor of change for change's sake without an acknowledgement of economic realities.
onederfullone
offlineMember
A group is formed. A justification exists to fund the group. We watch as the group grows, funding grows, voting occurs, money changes hands, property is acquired, and we get to finally tell the group to "shut the front door".
It's all so been done before.
The longer we tolerate it, the more invested we get, and the more disappointed with the group we become. RTA was instrumental in destroying our best elevated mass transit option ever. Millions were lost because they needed to monopolize our public transportation funding, in the most in-effective, irresponsible, irrational method ever conceived.
But, damn, them trains are shiny...
Just from a compassion standpoint, anybody care to point out how many deaths are associated to 'light rail', surface level mass transit, compared to an elevated option like a monorail?
I really can't get passed the unreal expense of it all, and it cripples surface traffic to boot. Anyway, the people have spoken. Long live the group.
great idea
offlineMember
I'd rather have a subway than an elevated 'monorail'
those are just ugly. the chicago 'L' is only charming in a nostalgic industrial-revolution sort of way. they're loud and they block daylight. BORE.
Ballardguy
offlineMember
Subway, monorail, lightrail whatever, you over populate an area and traffic will suck no matter what. Keep building these giant condo-urban village B.S. and this is what you get.
great idea
offlineMember
"Exhibit A is the fact that every road in Seattle that's gone on a "road diet" has created a dedicated right of way right down the middle of the street for nothing more than a turn lane."
I don't think those road diets work w/o the turn lane. they replaced a four lane street where you had a left lane you could clog while turning. if there's only two lanes and you take that median away, the system collapses.
onederfullone
offlineMember
"Urban villages" block more sun than a monorail. fwiw.
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
GI + 1
I also prefer a subway underground and it would be nice to have public transportation 24/7 . It amazes that for how big Seattle is that we don't have at least buses running 24/7 especially on weekends. I am not condoning it but many people that go out partying can't afford cab fare and opt to drive instead. I honestly believe that if there was a more inexpensive option that drunk driving would be reduced.
boatgeek
offlineMember
BH- I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people buying several $4-$8 drinks and then cry poor about paying for a taxi.
To the original topic, grade separated transit is faster, safer, and less disruptive to the neighborhood. Whether it's worth the cost is another question, although crossing the Ship Canal or the Duwamish will require bridges or tunnels anyway. Continuing underground (for the tunnel case) may not be all that much more expensive. You also need at least two full lane widths of roadway to put in a track in each direction, and probably more like three if you want crazy stuff like safety barriers to keep drivers from drifting on to the tracks. That doesn't fit in a center turn lane or even the average 4-lane arterial.
NW Native
offlineMember
saffy if you think grade level and grade separated transit are the same thing, then you really are clueless.
saffythepook
offlineMember
GI, I wasn't arguing that the turn lane is an optional component of a road diet, just that with the road diet program, we've already implemented a methodology for setting aside a right of way in the middle of existing roads. That methodology could just as easily be allocated for use by a train as it can be for a turn lane.
Norge
offlineMember
I don't care if it's above ground or below ground but whatever is built needs to be separate from street level traffic or the commute times to downtown will only get worse. I find that buses in to town are pretty good at 7:00 a.m. but when traffic bogs down by the Galor Street Bridge by 7:45 a.m. even the bus lane does very little good going around the Denny curve. Coming home is another story -- on the 15 express it takes about 45 minutes to get home if you leave downtown after 4:30 p.m. On the 15 local it takes at least an hour. Now this Rapid Ridge D-Line is a joke to me -- how they call it rapid when there are 22 stops to downtown (plus the route up West Mercer through Queen Anne) is a joke. Ballard is only about 4.5 miles from downtown and I can drive it in 15-20 minutes between 4:30 and 5:30 p.m.
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
This thread just got me thinking about the movie "Singles" and the character that was working on designing a rail system for the city. That was way back in 1992 and it was a major issue and recognized in the movie. I wonder how much the cost has gone up from back then to now.
Cheese
offlineMember
NWNative: You're like me, I find that insults always get the point across better, don't you?
Norge: When I saw the RapidRide is still going across Queen Anne and stopping at all those stops, I had to do a double take. How is this "rapid"? But we'll see.
I keep an open mind on all the alternatives. With our current buildup of our infrastructure, the methods that are the least disruptive, cheaper and more efficient will be more attractive. Furthermore, I want a pony.
great idea
offlineMember
"BH- I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for people buying several $4-$8 drinks and then cry poor about paying for a taxi. "
it's not about sympathy necessarily, but making it easy for people to get home at night.
an interesting idea for sure-- that effiecient mass-transit reduces impaired driving. I would believe it's true given my experience drinking with friends in places that had it (like Chicago, NYC, etc.) vs. places that don't (like here, where very few people I know take taxis, not that they're getting shit-faced but maybe approaching the legal limit).
saffy--wouldn't many of those 'road-diet' artertials also be the ideal route for mass-transit though?
Edog
offlineMember
Yes, but the Mayor in Singles was a better mayor than the a*s monkey we have now.
onederfullone
offlineMember
Re: Rapid Ride.
great idea
offlineMember
Tom Skerritt for mayor then?
aka 'Viper'
Edog
offlineMember
Could it be any worse?
great idea
offlineMember
I think his best film was 'Up in Smoke' w/ Cheech & Chong.
Edog
offlineMember
I thought the was good in Top Gun but felt the movie was a little misleading. (For years, I thought it was gay porn)
What other movie mayor might we consider?
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
What about the Goblin King in "Labyrinth"?
Bowie for mayor
onederfullone
offlineMember
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tJESlcUJZQ&feature=related
...as if it were real life...
NW Native
offlineMember
Cheese: It's not an insult when the ignorant one is spouting off. It isn't my job to educate them on how clueless they are, just to let them know that they are clueless.
onederfullone
offlineMember
clueless people can be native. indeed.
HeatherHeather
offlineMember
You wouldn't believe the amount of condos that will be going into Ballard in the next 5-10 years. With an inevitable population increase of THOUSANDS, we will need some transit solutions, and fast. Buses won't cut it. I'll support anything at this point just GET IT DONE.
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
Hell. I am going to open a rickshaw business and utilize the bike lanes in Ballard.
Painting party this weekend
onederfullone
offlineMember
all I heard was party...
Are you some kinda painter bh? ;-)
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
oneder - Interesting you ask since I did major in art.
I was thinking I could get some cheap labor on the rickshaws by attaching 40's to the end of a pole and posting help wanted signs under the Ballard Bridge & Ballard Commons ;)
onederfullone
offlineMember
I think the 40's are genius, but truth be told, I think the help wanted signs would scare them off.
What does an art major do? (hypothetically speaking, of course);-)
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
When you are stuck in Catholic school it helps your sanity after Theology class.
pixlpete
offlineMember
If anyone wants an easier read on the subway topic, which I did, they are on Ye Old Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/seattlesubway
NW, I still think we would be better off if King County and the City of Seattle could get their heads out of their asses, cooperate, and do a proper job of clean reliable bus service in Seattle. Once you dig a tunnel, that is where everyone has to go if they want to use it. Bus service is malleable, can change over time to meet the needs, trains in any form are not.
Personally, I am really happy with what is changing as far as the Metro 18 (one bus thru Northgate, 24th, NW Market, Leary Way, Fremont, downtown), that meets all my bussing needs perfectly. That can’t be said for the majority of people who actually *need* to use it to get back and forth to work. A subway or train is useless if there is a half hour walk or long bus waits on either end. It is easy to say that this is acceptable, unless it’s you who has to pick up kids from day care, cook dinner/make breakfast, etc.
I could take public transportation to work (Ballard to Renton), but it would add 4 hours to my workday and involve lengthy strolls next to 5 lanes of nasty traffic and a sewer treatment plant twice a day, no thanks. If I could rely on a 45-50 minute bus ride that got me within a few blocks and didn’t stink like piss or be over jammed like a sardine can, I would be on it for sure.
The Times reported that the only park-and-ride lot - in Tukwila - was only a quarter full halfway through the morning commute. Around 8am, trains were arriving in Tukwila from Seattle with fewer than ten riders aboard. A train came into downtown around 7:30 with just over 100 people on it. The 9:30 northbound train had 39 riders aboard.
In other words, for the cost of an $800,000 articulated bus, we have accomplished the same task with a $2.4-billion light rail system.
boatgeek
offlineMember
I wonder how old that info from the Times is. I have a very limited sample of riding light rail, probably less than 10 times to the airport and back. I've never seen the park and ride lot at 25% full, and the trains have been fairly full around commute times. Claiming that a single bus could do the same job as the entire light rail network is also stupid. If you're going to pick apart light rail, at least compare apples and apples (like maybe 20+ buses to do the same job at lower schedule reliability and more congestion).
eric
offlineMember
buses also help destroy our already weather challenged roads. 24th headed s has some wheel-width apart trenches forming near 75th. that is only one example.
you CAN get just about anywhere in the city by bus, but the time shaved off your life and the company make it really difficult to use.
BuffaloHawk
offlineMember
eric +1 " the company make it really difficult to use. "
especially in the ride free zone downtown
Subways never pay back their capital costs. Not even in New York.
Of course, light rail also loses money, but at least there is less digging involved.
iPlod
offlineMember
Just keep it all off grade like those other sensible cities. Seattle wants to be sensible, right?
great idea
offlineMember
when my kids are acting up, I'll say "act sensible"
or if they're really being goofy, "normal up."
pennygirl
onlineMember
Right.
great idea
offlineMember
and what would your motherly pearls be, penny?
Novalis
offlineMember
"It's all so been done before." True.
Voted for it, once.... then again and again... it passed and then didn't then did then didn't.
I really would love to see a rail system connect all parts of the city. Be it lightrail, on elevated rails or a subway.
I'm tired of caring.
BriarRose
offlineMember
LOL Walt. Public service is not business and it ia never intended to make money. By your thinking we ned to dump fire protection. After all it has never made a dime and costs us a fortune.
pennygirl
onlineMember
GI...I was responding to iPlod.
Edog
offlineMember
PG The only comment we need from you about this tram is how to make it a better get away car for all those people who rob the bank near your QFC, or maybe where to put the gun rack or NASCAR stickers otherwise why don't you lie back and think of the Tube.
Psyche!
pennygirl
onlineMember
Right.
ricecloudnine
offlineMember
Monorail, monorail...
ricecloudnine
offlineMember
Double post...
Mondoman
offlineMember
eDog, it's more fun to think of the Tubes!
ballardpilot
offlineMember
People here keep making a fundamental error: you assume that those who run your city want to improve your life, and make lot easier for you to get around. That is demonstrably not the case. You need to recognize that they don't give a shite about you or what you want, and in fact are trying their best to make your life worse. That's their agenda.
There ain't gonna be any subway, monorail, light rail, heavy rail, or other transit system in this city. You will be forced to ride the existing crappy bus system, or a bicycle. Those are your choices, period. Don't like it? Tough. That's what your city lords dictate. Get used to it.
iPlod
offlineMember
The government is elected by we the people with the notion that we put them there to make our lives easier and improve our getting around. If they don't, why then we the people ought to kick their butts out if we the people don't get our way.
Problem is, defining "we" since apparently our government can't manage to make "we" encompass all of "the people".
ballardpilot
offlineMember
Alas, the voters are suckers.
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