...then why is no one talking about all the stuff the city will do with the revenue it generates or maybe a reduction is sales tax?
I know why. It's not a good deal.
...then why is no one talking about all the stuff the city will do with the revenue it generates or maybe a reduction is sales tax?
I know why. It's not a good deal.
Shhhh....there's elephants sleeping in the room.
it actually is a pretty good deal relative to what other cities are bullied into.
even if it was a lucrative deal, those pennies would be supporting general services that would be nothing to brag about.
bring on the elephant!
"it actually is a pretty good deal relative to what other cities are bullied into."
I am not swayed because an idea is less worse than other ideas. I am swayed when an idea is a good idea.
Wow Joe, that was incredibly profound. Any other brilliant insights you want to share with us?
We are all agog to build a MULTI-BILLION dollar tunnel that will FOR SURE take money from the pockets of each and every property owner on this forum.
But when we are presented with a genuinely good proposal that pretty much pays for itself, we put on the wooden shoes, grab the pitchforks and storm the castle.
Key words Bob "pretty much"?
How much does the City still owe on the Key arena and King dome?
I need a break. Not another tax to make some rich guy richer.
The tax is only if you buy a ticket to use the new venue and the city gets ownership of the property.
I maybe incorrect ...
There is also a property tax, which affects everyone (since it will be passed on to renters by landlords)
"But when we are presented with a genuinely good proposal that pretty much pays for itself, we put on the wooden shoes, grab the pitchforks and storm the castle."
The reason I want to grab a pitchfork is not that the deal "pretty much" pays for itself, although them's fighting words too, but instead because they originally claimed no tax money would be used, and that is obviously untrue. It begs the questions: what else is untrue? And will we know in time?
If there are enough sports fans to support a stadium then they don't need my money. I like science fiction conventions but I'm not trying to raid the public trough to fund them.
besides the property tax, which is tiny (2-3 dollars/household), it will be sports fans paying for this arena.
also, the extra property tax is only being levied because he's GIVING US THE LAND.
more land = more property taxes. it's actually not a bad thing.
The bottom line for me, is my taxes are going up when they said they wouldn't. The amount isn't the issue. The justification isn't the issue. It's the deception.
GAM, clearly you have no clue on how tax assessments work. Please, read a book then come back to us with an informed opinion.
Do enlighten us, Native.
Right now property taxes are being paid on that land. Once that land becomes property of the city, no property taxes are paid. That missing property tax has to be recovered from all other property owners. And there is the tax increase related to the arena deal.
NW Native: Actually, I have an Econ degree, and my favorite classes were the ones on taxation, which is why I'm so easily outraged on the subject.
But my complaint is not about the (bogus) tax structure. It's about the deception. Somehow, that point continues to be missed (or willfully ignored?).
Dweezil says it well, by the way. But if they really wanted to stick to their original statement about no additional taxes, they'd go about it a different way. Which brings me back to my mantra that they were deceptive.
"That missing property tax has to be recovered from all other property owners"
And there is the sticking point.
The property tax is not being levied to pay for a new arena. When the property is turned over to the city in the proposed arena deal and becomes public property it is no longer taxable. Seattle property owners will pay additional tax to cover the lost tax revenue.
Dweezil, you must type faster than I do.
The issue is our city leaders are incapable of full disclosure. Maybe they need to advertise, hire Sally Fields "You can save the Sonics for as little as a cup of coffee"
I think that was Sally Struthers. Either way, someone telling the whole truth would be nice.
Hansen seems pretty forthright about the taxes issue here. This is dated 6/22. Maybe he was so stupid he lied about this massive public tax until he got caught and then had to "come clean" about the cover-up with this fancy web page. What a selfish,lying, money grubbing jerk.
It costs me one dollar, kind of. If surrounding property values increase I might be out .50 cents.
Build the damn arena.
WHAT IS THE IMPACT ON SEATTLE PROPERTY TAXES?
Because of the method used by the State of Washington for levying property taxes, and because the City and County (two non-taxpaying entities) will ultimately own the Arena, other King County landowners will absorb the taxes associated with the increased valuation. These property tax payments flow directly to the City and County, and total approximately one million dollars per year. That amount is spread among the owners of the other $300 billion in real property in King County. This means the property tax increase due to the public ownership of the Arena is approximately 33 cents per $100,000 of assessed value.
Don't build the stadium.
I have no interest in spectator sports. The city has no moral reason to support one type of business over another.
Pay for bread and circus out of your own damn pocket.
Walt - "The city has no moral reason to support one type of business over another."
Then, morally, Seattle should be the equivalent on an Amish Community. Goodbye Amazon, goodbye Microsoft, goodbye Hospitals, goodbye whatever other giant corporation that seeks to do business in Seattle city limits.
I have no interest in being Amish.
I don't eat bread and circuses are just plain cruel.
I'll agree. Goodbye to any business that wants special favors. Are we not equal under the law?
Robbing Peter to pay Paul is fine for Paul, but Peter gets the shaft.
Is that Ron Paul you're nattering about?
I cannot stand soccer one bit. I think it is a dreadful, awful boring sport the way it is played professionally. All that flopping and play acting like they are hurt.
I really appreciate the atmosphere the Sounders and their fans bring to the city. The whole soccer culture is wonderful and adds to the cultural landscape of the city.
I believe the same is true for all huge spectator sports. They add a vibe to the city you just don't get any way else. They can be a unifying force in a city. File this under the intangibles benefit column of this new deal.
Walt really wants to see our economy collapse apparently.
Because economies cannot flourish without sweetheart deals?
"besides the property tax, which is tiny (2-3 dollars/household), it will be sports fans paying for this arena."
How many potholes would $2-$3 dollars per household fix? Or how many underprivileged kids would it feed?
Wait, who wants to feed potholes to underprivileged children? Oh, thats just wrong. But don't worry, I'm sure someone will rant about it!
Walt, Oly, Dweez, Gam make excellent informed points.
However, if you want to go by gut instinct - why would anyone trust a sleazy hedge fund* manager who can't look anybody in the eyes?
*Memba them - they're derivatives - derivatives got us into this financial mess.
hey wait a minute-- I make excellent uninformed points!
where's my kudos???!!
That's why I'm going with gut instincts on this one...
"How many potholes would $2-$3 dollars per household fix? Or how many underprivileged kids would it feed? "
if me and the 23 other households on my block all chipped in, I doubt the fifty or sixty bucks would fix one crack in the road.
maybe a dozen underprivileged kids could get a meal, but the pothole problem is much bigger I'm afraid.
Census 2010, there were a total of 283,510 households in Seattle X $3.00 = $850,530.
Seattle Gosple Mission can feed a person for $1.92 / meal, or 442,985 meals could be served.
Jobs to build a new stadium, jobs AT a new stadium, and jobs related to business surrounding a new stadium might mean people can buy their own damn food. Not to be unsympathetic but it's amazing just how many excuses people can come up with against the stadium. I wonder how many restaurants had to lay off servers when the Sonics left? I wonder how many Aramark (sp?) employees no longer had semi-regular employment at the Key.
This city is amazingly strange sometimes and not always in a good way.
I don't think anyone's against new jobs. I'm certainly not. Of course, these won't be the permanent high-paying jobs we need to turn the economy around, but a short term (construction) or low paying (server) job can be better than none.
That has nothing to do, though, with the connection I draw between the extremely high wages of the team owners and players and their claim that the only way to finance this is to increase our property taxes. We need to hold their feet to the fire until they get creative and give us a truly self-financed solution that lives up to their promise of no tax increases. For people that work in finance this isn't rocket science, especially for ~$850K a year, to use Rich Y's figure.
An argument can be made that the cost, when spread amongst all of us isn't much. I counter that with the cost, when deducted from their mega-salaries and profits isn't much either. And it's their dream, not mine. Oh, yeah. It was their promise, too. Can't forget that part.
GAM if you truly understood economics you would know how vital those construction and server jobs are to our economy.
I love Seattle politics: give a hand out to those we deny jobs from because they aren't high paying enough! Those whole place is bass ackwards.
Our property taxes keep going up though our home value stays even/decreases, depending. I tend to never vote for anything that will increase property taxes because I am tired of it. Schools? I don't have kids, don't want kids, and the argument that we need to put more money toward education is (imo) old. I DO see well educated and decent kids around but what tends to make the difference is the parenting, not the schools. Were I to see examples of funds being used wisely, I might change my mind but for now, it's always "no".
The stadium though, I'm good with that. It's not just because I'd go there but it's also something that would benefit the community. The stadium isn't for the players or team, it's for the fans. Jobs, even low paying jobs, are a good thing. My guess is as a by-product, that traffic nightmare down there will even get fixed by a new stadium going in though that should have been fixed ages ago.
I hope Chris Hansen keeps on with this and doesn't get tired of our constant negativity and whining.
NW Native: you are long on insults, but short on explanations. Because of that, I tend to ignore you. If you'd care to explain your point, I'd be interested in hearing it.
Cost of stadiums :
Safeco $384.0M overrun $145.0M (average attendance 21,939)
Qwest $430.0M overrun $130.0M (average attendance 66,000)
Area population is 4 Million
Cost to Taxpayers
Refund of property tax to Qwest field owners $14.6 M (from lawsuit claiming that the stadium was over evaluated) One time
Hotel Tax $36.9M / yr
$3,731,570 in deferred sales tax for Qwest field / yr
10% admissions tax added for all entertainment (to pay for both stadiums
Revenue to city attributed to home games $5.4M
Cost to residents $42.0M
Note: In the final days of the special legislative session, state Sens. Scott White and Ed Murray quietly added an amendment to legislation that would have extended the hotel/motel taxes to pay off debt on the Kingdome and Qwest Field. (The bill that was ultimately adopted dedicates the taxes to pay for arts and housing, but not until 2021).
Data from Wa State Dept of revenue
If these are such good deals for us why does it cost so much?
I know... lets put a little more effort into educating our kids rather than paying through the nose for game tickets to watch a bunch of overpaid atheletes do the same thing night after night.
Then, when our kids are educated and the taxes they pay (since they are employable) start rolling in then we can build a new arena.
The KEY/Coliseum has been capable of holding a crowd of people since the 70s. No reason it cant continue.
Columnist Danny Westneat from the Seattle Times compares Hansen's stadium proposal with the current Husky Stadium redo.
But the yearly revenue to the UW from football alone is : $33,919,639.00 (2010),
and the Huskies get no money from the university, students or state.
The attendace for Huskies football is 64,356
Seems to be a common refrain of the fact that the players make a lot of money. Is THAT why we don't want a new stadium? If it's any consolation, many of these players will end up with health problems and broke unless they have a career or investments to fall back on. They do make a lot of money, some of them, but for most it's short-lived.
I think no matter what happens with education, there will be no progress unless more parents take responsibility for their children. You could say maybe it's due to the economy (both parents work) or maybe it's laziness, I don't know. At least with a new stadium the kids can get low paying jobs at the concession stands and hopefully the employers don't background or drug check.
If its team payroll you are worried about, you could always run to Home Depot and field a team of illegals. They could not be any worse than the Sonics before they left town, or the Columbus Blue Jackets should they come to town.
"or the Columbus Blue Jackets should they come to town. "
hey now! they still have Rick Nash, one of the best hockey players around.
granted he's been trying to get out of that cow-town himself and will probably be on another team shortly.
Yet even if they replaced Nash with some guy from the parking lot of Home Depot - someone who had never seen ice - the BJs would not be any worse.
All the money made from Husky football is used to run the UW athletic department and pay for sports that don't generate a penny.
If that UW remodel goes sideways, the state will be on the hook.
"...the BJs would not be any worse. "
well when you call them the 'BJs', of course they'll suck.
Here's a different take on this........
Look at the missing link through Ballard. Why the hell should my tax money go for that?! They could be educating the CHILDREN with all that bike trail money! Think of the potholes that could be filled with all that special interest bike path pavement! A vast majority of the population will never utilize that trail. It will only be the privileged few who can ride bikes who will be using it. Think of the traffic impact on the businesses there. Cascade Bicycle Club seems to think they can just strut in here and build trails wherever the hell they want!
So NWNative -
it is OK for private corporations to use public money.
But it is BAD for Public institutions to use public money.
And if this new stadium goes sideways – as history here has shown it will, Kingdome and Coliseum , we will be on the ,as you say, the hook
I wouldn't allocate tax dollars for anything schemed up by a derivatives trader.
@CB: Transportation is actually a civic duty. Sports arenas for rich people are not.
I think I might rather see a tax break given to the Hansen group, as some large businesses receive, than getting the city knee deep into this deal. At least that way the city is not depending on this private group's success.
I think people get confused as to who the arena is for. The players see the locker room and the field. The nicer arenas might have better warm-up areas, of course. The owners see the suite. Nice arenas are for the people who go to the game, WE are the ones who appreciate it.
I'm really not sure about the bitterness. Do we have former high school athletes here who are angry that they aren't making the big money? Games are fun and part of that fun, is the experience. The experience is a place with good amenities, a good view if it's outdoor, good accoustics, etc.
So what I'm proposing for the potholes is this. Those idiots who keep their studded tires on WAY past their welcome should probably pay for the bulk of the repairs.
It has only been 4 years since a new arena was demanded and the NBA ran off. There is still a lot of bad blood over that and it will take a bit longer before wounds heal and the past is forgotten. Give it another 8 years and things will be different. Maybe 5 years if Stern is gone. :)
Yup... four years since there's been a team here. The fog still rolls in and the dogs poop in the neighbors yard. Life goes on. =]
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