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Is selling Real Change a valid career choice?

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Started 9 months ago by ballardpilot
Latest reply from VeganBiker

ballardpilot

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I'm not trying to be snide (for a change), this is a sincere question:

Is selling the Real Change homeless advocacy newspaper a lifelong career choice that the community should encourage and support? Forever?

I've been living in Ballard for a long time. I recall Real Change being around since, oh, maybe the early 1990s - maybe going on 20 years now. Some of the guys I see selling the paper come and go. I wish them well, and sometimes buy their paper. But there are a few guys that I swear have been selling Real Change in Ballard for at least 10 years now, maybe longer. They appear to have settled on this is the way they're going to get through life.

This got me to wondering...I think most of us figure selling this paper can serve as a short-term bridge for someone between just hangin' out with nothing to do, and a more stable life with a regular paycheck, a fixed address, and other earmarks of someone trying to improve their lot in life. But what if selling Real Change becomes a never-ending, co-dependent "enabling" behavior where the community is actually helping to keep someone dependent?

If someone has decided that selling Real Change is their "career" - all they want to do to support themselves for the rest of their life - and they have made a conscious choice to not do anything else....is that a choice that the community really wants to support and enable? Permanently?

Posted 9 months ago #
teigyr

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That's a valid question. It seems like the people at Real Change would be working with the sellers to get them ready with interview skills and a job history so the sellers can move on and new people can come in.

Posted 9 months ago #
ballardpilot

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I'd like to think so, but the evidence would appear to contradict that in some cases. There's one guy in particular who seems to be in one place every day, and has been for as many years as I can remember (and my memory is still pretty good). I'd like to think that supporting Real Change means you're helping someone get their life together, not that you're subsidizing that as their chosen way of life so they're free to spend their leisure time doing other things.

I'd prefer that Real Change made their resources available to those who actually need a little help and who will make a sincere effort to help themself and then move on to better things - rather than someone who has just decided this is going to be their gig until social security kicks in.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Ballardpilot,

I am afraid I don't know what someone selling Real Change earns. But I think I can certainly see lots of reasons why someone might stay in any low paying job, at Real Change or elsewhere. Maybe they are anxious of change when they have finally found something that may not be lucrative, but is at least regular. The work and its contact with many of the same people each day may help them define themselves, and give them just enough structure to hold the rest of their lives together. It may represent a pretty positive contact with people each day they haven't had much of before? They may not have the strength and energy that is needed to leave and take the next step, even with training and support from Real Change? So they stay. Hopefully they will grow past this at some point, but I wouldn't be surprised if not all did. The key thing to me is they are trying and have found something they can stick with. So long as the folks at Real Change have room in their operation for those folks, I wish them the best, and continued stability in their lives. And I am happy they have at least been able to take a step or two up the ladder beyond whatever low point they were at before.

I guess what I am trying to say is that even for most of us, change can be a source of real anxiety. And we are usually starting from a position of some stability and resources. To have hit a low point and finally find something like Real Change to give you a sense of place and purpose...well, thinking about leaving that may just be too much for some of them.

To make a not wholly appropriate analogy....think of someone in an abusive relationship. Why do they stay? Why don't they have the wherewithal to leave and strike out on their own? The two situations may not be so far apart as you might think.

Dave

Posted 9 months ago #
Pokerguy

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better than a career choice of begging for spare change to buy 4 loko

Posted 9 months ago #
GAM

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Preferable? Doubtful.
Lucrative? Nah.

Valid? You bet! Honest work is always valid.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Pokerguy,

very true!

Posted 9 months ago #
ballardpilot

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When there isn't an infinite number of dollars to go around, and there are others who need help....worth subsidizing forever?

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Ballardpilot,

If it helps keep those folks from dropping onto the lower rungs of the ladder, and Real Change feels they have the room in their operation to accomadate this. Yeah. I would rather see this than have those folks tossed back down the well. They would appear to be holding ground and holding their own even if they don't appear to be progressing. That would seem to be better than losing them again. I am not sure I would want to see that situation across all of Real Change, but for some? I hope there would be room for that. There are different degrees of success.

D

Posted 9 months ago #
Mondoman

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Although I think I have heard the founder or some other honcho at Real Change espouse a Share/Wheel type of "keep homelessness in the community's face until they pony up housing for everyone/anyone" philosophy, the few vendors I regularly patronize I see as decent members of our community, subject to bp's, GAM's, and ds's comments.

San Francisco has an organization called Delancey St (around since the 60s?) that I think is a much better solution, as it focuses on getting folks to progress through it and to learn/get "real" jobs.

Posted 9 months ago #
teigyr

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I look at programs like the Aloha Inn and FareStart and think that's how it ought to be worked. I guess there is a constant for some and I can see that with Real Change or with tent city. It seems like those entry level type things/places should be for people transitioning through though, as referenced above.

So for the groups that want to provide housing for everyone, how would that work? There are housing opportunities though not everyone wants to abide by the "rules" whether they be no drinking, paying rent, or no criminal activity. I really think there are times homelessness (or no job) is a choice instead of a temporary situation.

Posted 9 months ago #
ballardpilot

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Of course there are people who simply choose the "homeless lifestyle" - the Share/Wheel nitwits proudly say so, they assert it's anyone's right to choose to live that life, and that they are entitled to have services provided to them, with no strings attached (Mondo's reference to Share/Wheel demanding that someone provide free housing for all the homeless - sure, that's gonna happen). Ballard has no shortage of these happy, entitled freeloaders - many of our long term "car campers" are there by choice. Certainly not all of the homeless, but definitely some of them.

I'm all for helping out someone who has gone through a tough time, even if they may have made a string of spectacularly poor choices and are largely responsible for their own fate (and of course that's not the case for plenty of people). But I do think that you have to draw the line somewhere. If someone has burned all his bridges, has beens given lots of chances, repeatedly received help, but isn't interested in anything other that continuing to receive more help and won't do anything to positively change their situation....I feel like at some point there are others who are more deserving of the limited public assistance that's available. The single mom, the injured worker, the truly disadvantaged....but the guy who lives in his van on handouts because it provides him with plenty of leisure time and he just enjoys the lack of responsibility too much to be bothered with any sort of work...I'm not so enthusiastic about continuing to help him.

Posted 9 months ago #
Nora Bell

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There is a vendor profile in the paper every week that highlights each individual's reason for selling Real Change. The reasons are so varied it's hard to focus on just one. But most keep selling it because they like interacting with people. I'm not saying there are none that are using it as a career choice, but that's not the majority.

Posted 9 months ago #
great idea

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autonomy. sure, they can get other low-paying jobs, but not many where you can interact w/ people and be your own boss.

I heard an interview w/ the man who has been selling in front of the U district Safeway for well over 10 years. he's had some decent jobs, but has serious anger issues that didn't allow those situations to work out. this position is ideal for him for many reasons that dsomers pointed out.

I see these jobs as legitamate. I kind of wish they'd yell 'extra, extra' every now and again as a throwback.

Posted 9 months ago #
gracie

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+1 poker guy
And ballardpilot - I agree with poker guy. At least they are working & not just hanging around asking for a handout. All of the people I have encountered selling the paper have been very nice, not pushy, pleasant. Just remember - some of us could be just one paycheck away from being one of them selling the paper - you just never know.

Posted 9 months ago #
onederfullone

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As far as income, I am under the impression that the seller gets 60% of every dollar.

Not a lot. Some folks in tough spots find panhandling to be no option, so this provides an option they can live with.

Then there is a spin off industry of re-selling pre-sold copies from the recycling bin, while ingenious, not exactly the goal.

As far as it being a valid career choice, permanently, I doubt it is, but is there a limit to how long anyone can stay a burger flipper? A tent city resident? A blogger?

Nope.

If someone can make $6 a day (a fortune in some circles), doing something beyond stealing or harassing folks, I don't see the issue. I could never be a telemarketer, but certainly recognize it beats nothing for some people.

I guess there are bigger issues to concern ourselves with, namely, what we do to feel okay, and who would seek to change it as an option.

Posted 9 months ago #
gracie

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+1 onderfullone

Posted 9 months ago #
ballardmike

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Ditto. As far as the term "career-choice" for this question... loaded; imho.

Posted 9 months ago #
Cate

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For someone who is mentally ill, cognitively challenged or otherwise unable to function in the typical workplace, yes, selling Real Change may be a "valid career choice." And 1derfull1, occasionally we do agree - I always enjoy it when that happens.

Posted 9 months ago #
onederfullone

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I enjoy it more than you do, I promise.

Posted 9 months ago #
iPlod

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Everybody get over here for a big hug!

(Except you ballardpilot, hmmph!)

Posted 9 months ago #
VeganBiker

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ballardpilot - Selling Real Change is as much of a "job" as any other "job". I actually read the paper and it often has good articles, sometimes topics that are not covered in the shrinking locally printed mass media.
My experience of most of the people that sell this paper is that they are trying to stay one step ahead of being totally destitute. I applaud them for what they are doing and really if most of us looked at were we are, it is often a fine line between what we have now and being where they are if things went wrong for us.
So give these people a break! If some of them want to make it a full time job, so what! At least they are not begging.
Do you think you are better than these sellers because you are "ballardpilot".

Posted 9 months ago #
Pokerguy

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I'm so sick of that tired line that "it is a fine line between them and us" or "we are all one bad break from living on the street." I don't know what kind of choices you people have made, but I have set myself up in life so that I am far, far away from that fate. I haven't burned every bridge I have, I have an education, savings, been responsible with my money, a wide skill set.

I've set myself up in life so that I would never have to suffer that fate. If you are one bad break away from living on the street you need to make some lifestyle changes while you still can.

Posted 9 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Pokerguy - you are one lucky guy (Pokerguy that makes sense). However in the "real world" people often loose everything and fall on hard times regardless of how well they planned. So I really hope you have it all together as you say, but many people don't, and so here you are you degrading them for the choices that they have made, well so be it. You have to live with who you are. People are people and I wish you all the best thinking that none of this will ever touch you.

Posted 9 months ago #
Pokerguy

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I have never known anyone in my life who was close to the brink of losing everything regardless of circumstances. I stand by what I said, if you are one "bad break" from being in that spot you likely have already made a number of poor choices.

Posted 9 months ago #
phoo

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It depends what the bad break was. I do not know if I buy into the "bad break" argument or not, but I do think it is easier than you think to go from having a well managed life to suddenly becoming disabled in some way, having horrible hospital bills but not having a way to work to pay them. Sure, you've got savings set aside, but that is a matter of time. You've probably bought yourself a house, but you may still have a mortgage and the taxes have to be paid sometime. Do you have a year of food set aside? Your disability may require a special diet, not to mention convenience food or hiring help to clean or cook. There are still ways to keep off the street, but you may be not be so far from it as you are now under the right (or wrong as the case may be) circumstances.

Posted 9 months ago #
Cate

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With all due respect Pokerguy if you "have never known anyone in my life who was close to the brink of losing everything" you have either lived a very narrow and sheltered life or you have chosen, consciously or not, to not see people suffering around you.

Posted 9 months ago #
Pokerguy

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Phoo- The example you give is so extreme it is absurd. COULD I suffer some debilitating illness that all that could happen, yes, but it is insanely unlikely and IMO not what people mean when they say "one bad break." I think people consider a bad break losing a job or something similar, which suggests most people live paycheck to paycheck. That means they aren't responsible and likely abuse credit cards, overspend and live beyond their means.

Even if I was to find myself in that situation there are at least 50 different friends and family members that would take me in and I would at least have a roof over my head.

Are there homeless out there who are in that spot because even though they have lived a responsible life and have been dealt a series of bad breaks, yes, but the population of people who are in that situation because of their own doing is much, much larger.

Cate- I haven't been sheltered at all. I do however choose to surround myself with people like me who make good decisions in life and are extremely unlikely to find themselves in that position.

Posted 9 months ago #
great idea

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Karmas gonna get you bro.

better watch your back today!

so nice to have that 'safety net' which could be easily cut with a pair of kichen shears.

I would bet there are friends/family of pokerguy that are closer to the brink than he suspects. people are reluctant to offer up this sort of information; pride has a way of refusing to ask for help.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Poker,

I applaud your sound decision making and planning. I am not saying that sarcastically. But please realize that not everyone makes good decisions all the time. Not everyone is able to make the kind of salary you are making in order to have the savings and future proofing you have built. It isn't that these are bad people. They just made poor choices for one reason or other and have much less fat to live on when things go wrong. Any society, not just ours, is stratified, layered, with some making huge incomes compared to most who make little. The folks who make little are simply going to be much closer to the edge whether they make reasonable decisions or not.

Think about it. Perhaps you have struggled over the years to buy a house. Saving and building the down needed. You go to the bank and your friendly banker convinces you that you can do a much bigger mortgage on a smaller down that you thought thanks to the magic of an ARM mortgage. You are not that solid with financing so you trust your banker and you go for it. Then 2008 hits and the economy tanks and your real estate value heads deep underwater. your ARM kicks in and the mortgage payments shoot up. Then as a result of the economy your job goes away and because of things going on in the company your pension is worthless. Most of your savings is in your house and your pension. You have much less of a cash cushion than is prudent, partly because of some overspending, partly because of circumstances. A child you didn't expect for example. Now you are out of a job, and your pension is gone and you have a big mortgage out there. You aren't finding work in the area for whatever reason, or what you find has a much smaller salary and no insurance or pension provision. In time you are unable to pay the mortgage. Forclosure starts. Stress is building fast in your little family because of the financial situation. All your family is back east so they are not much help unless you can get back there somehow, but the house holds you here. Then your spouse or you or your child develops a serious illness or is in an accident. Your insurance went with your job. The bills roll in faster along with the stress and anxiety of a hurting loved one. How close are you to the edge now? And if you or your spouse are not up to that stress and begin to develop serious emotional problems? Drinking? Drugs? Depression? Family violence? The spiral deepens.

Start lower on the salary rung and go through even part of this scenario again. And keep in mind most Americans are in or are moving into the lower end of the salary ladder given circumstances over the last 50 years.

I know...this is a lot of ifs piling up. But it happens. Most people are not nearly in as solid a situation as you or I may be. And given enough attention from Murphy and his laws and you and I could start heading down the ladder as well. We just have further to go and more options to exercise on the way.

Cate...your work with a lot of folks who are in a bad way. Can you add to this? You have way more direct experience that I do.

Dave

Posted 9 months ago #
Cate

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d- I do have much direct experience but I can't cite specific examples as it would be breaking the confidentiality of my clients to talk about their life experiences on a public forum. 75% (more or less) of the families I work with qualify for WIC and food stamps, a substantial portion are homeless or insecurely housed (i.e. sofa surfing or in shelters/transitional housing). For many of them it is a multi-generational sociological lifestyle reflecting power structures in our society. For many it is related to drug and/or alcohol abuse. But for equally many it is the result of "bad luck", "bad breaks" and circumstances beyond their control. The birth of a special needs child, the death or abandonment of/by a partner, a flood or fire destroying their residence, a medical crisis (the most common cause of personal bankruptcy in the U.S. is medical bills). Our economy has changed to one where low paid (usually without health insurance) service jobs have replaced many of the previous middle-class manufacturing jobs. For people/families with these types of jobs it can take only one crisis to start a spiral into homelessness - they lack the resources and support networks to deal with the broken arm that causes them to lose their job for instance.
What is surprising is that we are talking about a substantial portion of our society. For instance, slightly over 20% of children are "food insecure" (they miss meals). This is a larger percentage then for adults or seniors since young parents are at the start of their careers and thus make less or are more likely to be laid off.
My first job after graduate school was working at a school for homeless children here in Seattle. It shocked me that there were enough homeless children to have a school for them. But I learned that was only the tip of the iceberg, there are homeless children in all of the schools in the Seattle School District. That includes the ones in Ballard. Most/many families are shamed and embarrassed to be in this situation and hide it from those around them so we can pass through life not noticing the situation these families/people are in, but they are present throughout Seattle.

Posted 9 months ago #
BooRadley

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Has anyone in this thread even bought a copy? I've been here 17 years and bought one in the mid nineties out of "niceness/ pity." Since, I politely decline or complain of the lack of a sports page.

Posted 9 months ago #
Hello

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To those who like to infer their financial security is based solely on their gumption and good decisions:

Do you recall every hand-up or hand-out you received? Do you recall any inheritance, good investment tips or loans you were able to get, do you recall the people who were the gatekeepers who allowed you in because you fit in to their circle?

Do you recall having moments of peace in your life that allowed you to plan your future?

Or do you just like to pretend you constructed your ‘perfect’ life all by yourself and navigated this crazy world without any assistance?

There are all sorts of people in this world with many different circumstances, just count your blessings then hand over your precious dollar with a smile.

Posted 9 months ago #
teigyr

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Have not bought a copy but I spoke to a vendor at length about british car engine problems. He had a valid idea however, fortunately, it was less severe than what he thought. He used to have a lot of vintage cars, however, and it was interesting to talk to him. I did wonder how he got to where he was, however. I also had the same thought about a woman I saw at a nursing home while I was visiting my grandmother. She was reading the same book I was and it was a "um...I'm not old and you are and why are we reading the same book?" moment. I was young and it was a reminder that we're not all that different.

I think there are life decisions that lead up to homelessness. There was a camper parked on our street that when I researched it, it turns out the owner is a loud homeless advocate who seems to think the world is against him. His history, while written presumably to garner sympathy, showed bad decisions and "I don't need to live by these rules" choices all the way as he burned all sorts of bridges. I also think there are people who try and want a better life. The Real Change vendors I see that from, other people steal (as our camper guy did) or find not so ethical ways to make money. I also see that it should be a way up. It's work history, part of a resume, and a way to actually make a bit more money and have benefits. I wish they would go into a more stable job and open up their spot for someone who needs it.

Posted 9 months ago #
Hello

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Try looking past your nose. Please.

Posted 9 months ago #
Pokerguy

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Hello- You are taking the discussion in a completely different direction then the point I made. VB said most of us have a fine line between where we are and where they are. I disagree. To your point of course people are born into all different situations and given all sorts of opportunities in life.

I was raised by an upper middle class family and have thankfully never wanted for anything. That doesn't change the fact that myself, along with many other people, are not "one bad break" away from being on the street.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Pokerguy,

I think one of the points being made is that the number of people who are a few bad breaks away from disaster is surprisingly large. I might even say shockingly large. I know I am largely insulated from most of this simply through my work and its contacts and where I live and what I tend to do after work. But if I lift my head up a bit it is easy to see. And as Cate said....many of the folks around us who on the surface appear to be fine are really up against the wall, but hide it out of shame and embarrassment. Not easy to see past when we are tied up in our day to day "stuff." A condition that certainly describes me to a T by the way Poker! I don't mean that as an indictment against you.

The other point was that all of us could have this happen to us. Its just that for some of us the cascade that would have to occur to get us there is longer and a bit more involved. I have sat down before with a pencil just to see what might have to happen to ruin me. And in spite of the fact that I am pretty solid in terms of my job and salary and health benefits and overall health and other assets, the wrong combination of things could happen and bring me to my knees financially. I like to think I am a positive, upbeat, resilient person as well. But none of us really knows what will take us out emotionally until the circumstances happen.

I think you and I may be relatively close on the "ladder." One exception might be that whereas you have said you have a big extended family who would step in to help you when needed. In my case I am the last one on my side of the family. No one else out there I am aware of. So in describing this scenario I have no one to turn to but myself.

So lets assume that to start with my wife and I have a serious falling out we can't get past and we divorce. The settlement does not go well for me since I have the larger salary and work history by a large margin. All of our resources are in both out names, something that I did deliberately to protect her should something happen to me while I was traveling so much. Not the best move perhaps...but the one that gave her the most protection. So I lose a large part of my resources; the house and its equity, savings and other accounts, and any other physical assets I have. My salary as well. And I probably have to keep paying for all her insurance as well. That is a BIG hit. And...in the divorce process I am alienated from her family. So now not only do I not have any family of my own, but I essentially don't have her family to help either.

Then lets assume that Murphy comes by and does something nasty and wicked to my health. A serious biking accident or an illness that incapacitates me enough that I cant return to work. (I watched this in this office a number of years back. An IT person who had a heart problem, who suffered from a lack of oxygen during the initial crisis and following surgery he lost a good portion of his memory, and a fair amount of the skill set that made him successful in his job. The office carried him for a long while, but they finally had to push him into a medical retirement because he was simply not functional. The point being that this is a distinct possibility) I still have insurance and my job, but the job is not going to remain long if I can't do it. And my ability to pay insurance and mortgage is not going to last long on a medical benefit AND having to pay my portion of the divorce settlement. Then lets say that like many heart patients, I encounter depression. Again, this is a common and serious problem with a heart issues for some reason. How close am I to the edge now? How long will my resources hold up under this cascade of problems. Certainly, I will last longer than folks who have far less resources, but.........there is a limit. And oh so many of us are in that lower income range that has sooooo much less cushion than you and I may. See what I mean??

Dave

Posted 9 months ago #
ballardpilot

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This thread has branched and drifted into four or five major tangents, that I think completely ignore the central point of my question. It also seems some of the responders didn't bother to read my initial question.

(And by the way, yes, I do buy the paper sometimes. But not from the guy I've seen selling it for 10 years who seems to have settled on that as his career.)

I don't think any rational person would maintain that all homeless are homeless for the same reasons. And I think all of us (even those who might question some of the current policies and practices that are in place to assist the disadvantaged) want to help those who really need help and who are doing what they can to get themselves out of their current situation.

The questions I have are: should assistance be offered endlessly, to anyone who takes it? Should there be any strings attached? Any limits at all?

I'm absolutely certain that there are folks in our community that need help, that can make good use of what's provided, and that are doing what they can to get out of their current difficult circumstances. For them, it's obviously not a lifestyle choice - they don't want to be where they are. I want to ensure that these people get the help we can provide. I think all of us do.

I'm also pretty sure there are others who refuse to do anything to improve their situation, who do not want anything different, and who will take all the assistance they can get, forever. For them, it's simply a choice - the assistance they receive allows them to live the life they have chosen, rather than having to support themselves.

I think these two kinds of the homeless do not need to be treated the same way and should not be lumped together. I want to help those who will at least try to improve their situation. I do not think it's appropriate to continue to give assistance to those who plan to spend the rest of their lives getting assistance and who refuse to make any effort to become more self-sufficient.

Here's my question for those who apparently cringe at the thought of questioning any public assistance to "the homeless":

Is there anything that you would require of a homeless person receiving public assistance? Is there any limit to how long they should be eligible to receive that assistance? Or do you feel that all someone needs to do is say they're homeless, and then they get public assistance with no strings attached, for the rest of their life?

Posted 9 months ago #
great idea

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if someone is working (i.e. standing in a doorway and selling a paper), I don't consider that 'public assistance'

Real Change receives money from individuals, companies and foundations.
these people are employed. they also foster relationships within the community.

not a dime of your tax money is going to them, so what's the problem?

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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ballardpilot,

The answer for me depends on what the program is. In the case of Real Change I think having room for those kinds of people is appropriate. Overall I believe their goal is to get people to move on once certain goals are met, but they seem to have the room/flexibility available for those who need or want to stay much longer. I have no problem with that and donate to them directly. And, as GI pointed out, their funding is not tax based. ( I don't buy papers from them as a rule simply because I never get to read any newspapers and they almost always go straight to the recycling bin. A waste. So I donate to them via United Way.)

I can see other types of assistance programs along this line being more rigid in their time frames. I am glad there is room for both approaches however.

And I do deeply appreciate their approach....assistance in the form of a salary in exchange for work. I have tremendous respect for the model used by the old WPA and CCC programs in the Great Depression and wish we would do more with that in our social programs today. That model is not appropriate for everyone certainly, but it had great value for the folks it served, and the country got some amazing and long lasting things out of it as well.

Dave

Posted 9 months ago #
nwcitizen

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"Here's my question for those who apparently cringe at the thought of questioning any public assistance to "the homeless";..."

What public assistance? Do you mean the $1 that I pay a vendor to receive the paper which, incidentally, has some pretty good articles in it that I don't find in any other local paper? For me that is value received at a fair price.

Oh, and "the homeless" that you refer to are a group of individuals each with their own uniqueness just like "the housed".

Posted 9 months ago #
Cate

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My son volunteers for Real Change. What he tells me is that each week a vendor is given a starter pack of free Real Change - 8 copies I believe. They then pay 35 cents (I think that is the figure, might be 30) for every additional copy. If they sell the first eight they can use that money to buy additional copies to sell is the thought. So they make about 65 cents a copy but only after they have invested some of their own money into it. It actually is very entrepreneurial. And no public assistance involved.

Posted 9 months ago #
Hello

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Ballardpilot: The questions I have are: should assistance be offered endlessly, to anyone who takes it? Should there be any strings attached? Any limits at all?

I love how you threw out a completely, in your mind, neutral and fair question and then try to bring the conversation back to its origins.

You are looking for a simple solution to a complex problem.

This is a highly complicated social problem with many origins - where do you set the limits? When do you stop caring, how long can someone be homeless before you become impatient with their social condition, what level of mental illness will you allow in order to extend the homeless assistance, what level of violence to a human would satisfy you an let someone sleep on the sidewalk without your condemnation? What level of despair will you draw the line at and what level of hunger will you tolerate?

When it is stormy outside and you snug into your bed... do you ever think how fortunate you are or do you just pull the covers up and fall soundly asleep without a second thought?

This is not a simple question/topic you bring up - it is complicated and your desire to keep it simple and to create 'reasonable restrictions' show also a desire to ask for permission on where you should draw the line at your own compassion.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Member

Hello,

I have to say that I do understand where Ballardpilot is coming from with his question. We dont have unlimited resources. (though we often use our resources in ways I fail to follow the logic for....but that is a whole 'nuther' topic by itself.)

He is asking how far are we willing to go. It really doesn't matter if we ask this question of the Feds, or the State, or the County or City or a private outfit like Real Change. Each of these groups has its limits. He is asking for us to talk about how we want to see them defined. Its a valid question. And one that is at the heart of at least some of the political rancor we have going on right now.

And you are equally right to put it in the terms you did just now. These are all things that should be part of our decisions.

I am not sure though that Ballardpilot really intended this the way we seem to be taking it. I get the feeling he was trying to get a good conversation going....which we have had, and I hope we continue....and that he was not trying to use the question to softly state a view on his part.

Ballardpilot....am I reading this right? If not that is fine and I apologize for putting words in your mouth (or under your typing fingers in this particular case) Either way....we have a had a good, civil conversation goin on about this.

Dave

Posted 9 months ago #
Hello

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Member

Dave you are a good egg. Forgive my tone, if you will. I just pop in occasionally and this time when I saw, yet another, "Oh the homeless" thread I reacted. My points are my points but my tone could improve. My apologies.

Posted 9 months ago #
dsomers

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Member

No worries Hello! No apologies needed!! Your points were all good. BP is usually a good solid poster who is enjoyable to discuss things with whether you agree with him or not so I was trying to put some perspective on his OP. (now the question is whether I had the right perspective of course!! Hopefully he will pipe in soon! <grin>)

D

Posted 9 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Member

ballardpilot - I just read through these posts again and I thing Cate's last post makes the point very clearly that selling Real Change is "actually is very entrepreneurial. And no public assistance involved."
If you read the information on their web site it implies that selling the paper is a job and possibly a source permanent employment.
http://realchangenews.org/index.php/site/about/org

I buy a copy of the paper from Terry at Bartell's every time I go in there and Terry has been selling there for a few years. In my opinion he has a job that is not unlike any other newspaper seller. Cities used to have newspaper sellers on the street some years ago and this is no different.
Real Change actually often has some very interesting articles that are not covered in the Times or the PI(on-line PI that is).
So to answer your question of "is that a choice that the community really wants to support and enable? Permanently?"
Well I would love to see people like Terry selling Real Change for the rest of his life rather than see him destitute and begging. So yes I will support and enable him by buying the paper and often giving him more than a dollar.
And I have to say this, if you stop and talk to the vendors you might just understand the this job is something they can do to stay afloat and most of them do not have a lot of options, unlike some of us.

Posted 9 months ago #