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Daily news for Seattle's Ballard neighborhood |
ballardgirl
offlineMember
Ok, I will start this one, with the same news story everyone is reporting, but this one has a picture I like.
Why in the world would anyone in the USA even think shipping mountains of coal across our railways throughout the midwest, west, our state, and through downtown seattle, so china can make more crap to ship back here?
I am dumbfounded! How about you?
Mr. Peabody thought it was a good idea...
Mondoman
offlineMember
Yah, and while we're at it, what's with allowing Boeing to make and sell planes? Don't they know that jets are one of the top sources of global warming pollution? Not only that, but they sell a lot of 'em to furriners!
eric
onlineMember
i don't have a good feeling about the coal trains...
i assume it'll git dun because the exporter wants it so, but there are so many environmental and health aspects that concern me. in my dystopia, i see black sands at Golden Gardens and a path of death along the route that will be all coinncidence of course. thats just me though.
great idea
onlineMember
'the path of death'! I love it!
we can fight it tooth-and-nail, but it will ultimately take some Erin Brockovich-type character with nice legs to thwart the evil exporters.
MidWest
offlineMember
Trail Of Sooty Tears
eric
onlineMember
seriously, how could anyone think that dust and soot from that much coal being transported would be of little consequence? i really mean "path of death" - trees especially. any chance to help out good ol' China though.
hopefully i am just a paranoid fool...
onederfullone
offlineMember
Maybe you've never seen trees flourish in a carbon environment?
um...we are a carbon environment, fwiw.
It means jobs, it means we get to sell an export product, it means that heavily subsidized rails will actually, finally, be profitable.
Unfortunately, thanks to local greenie dimwits, it's not going to our port, but a brand spanking new port to our north.
Anyway, until China wants to import dimwits or dope, we aren't interested. lol.
wally
offlineMember
There's lots of coal trains already traveling through the area. Go hang out at Carkeek for a while. Kiddos are often standing on the bridge checking out the trains. How often have you seen coal dust/soot wafting from them?
teigyr
offlineMember
I just know I was robocalled by the anti-coal train people the other morning. Woke me up. Since I was nice and tired and relatively cranky, it gave me two groups of people to swear at! The anti-coal train people use a service to do their robocalling so that was my first contact. Do not call list apparently means nothing to them. Now it does. I then contacted the anti-coal people and explained that no facebooking no was I going to go stand outside to protest because I have a job. A job that will be hindered by the fact I'm facebooking tired due to their robocall. I also explained what do not call list means.
I love those days when I get only four hours of sleep. Stupid robocalling people.
onederfullone
offlineMember
"I love those days when I get only four hours of sleep. Stupid robocalling people."
You can delete robocalling, and I will get four hours of sleep.
ballardmike
offlineMember
Dumbfounded as well.
Corvus
onlineMember
It is easy to make knee jerk reactions to this issue, after all, it has all the elements... coal, dust, Sierra Club, global warning, China. All these things are enough to get any liberals panties in a whirl.
But look a little closer people. The amount of "dust" has been reduced to negligible. The dust issue is just that, an issue meant to get people riled.
There is a real issue. That issue is China burning coal and global warning. That issue I can't speak to because I have not researched it, but from what I understand, China is doing far better than the US in switching to clean burning coal and they are going to get the coal somewhere. I rather like the idea of the US becoming both the largest coal and oil exporter.
Call me selfish or whatever, but I'm very tired of hearing about how we have to placate and be involved in the middle east because that is where we have to get our oil.
Ernie
onlineMember
Corvus, we're not ever going to be the largest oil exporter, as long as we are the largest oil consumer, by a factor of two. I think you maybe meant oil producer, which I think is going to happen soon due to increased natural gas production.
For me, the main issue is that a private, for profit, company is going to make a bunch of money off extracting and exporting "our" natural resource and we get stuck with increased traffic congestion, pollution, impacts to passenger rail, etc. without getting much in return. The proponents haven't made a convincing argument that tax revenues and new jobs are going to even come close to making it worth the negative impacts to our area, IMO.
Just what do you suggest we do with all that coal? Leave it in the ground?
ballardgirl
offlineMember
To those for haulin' coal through Puget Sound. with all due respect, the coal trains to China through Seattle are not going to create jobs in the Seattle area as Boeing has, they are just passing through, kicking up dust, making us wait for trains downtown etc. There may be a few railroad jobs, and 100-a few hundred jobs in B-ham. The job increases and revenue improvement will be at the source of the coal, and in china... oh, and of course, Walmart. So why would we want to park our vehicles / bikes 18 more times per day, waiting for long trains at crossings, and listen to 18 more trains a day through Ballard so another state, Bellingham and Walmart can make more money while China makes out like a bandit?
I am all for train transport, but think it works best when they are equally loaded both ways, with goods needed here. Also, if we do not need the 'mountain o' coal' right now, how about leaving it lie until a later date when we have a better way to use the resource?
Then there is the property value issue, think about your listing: "I have a beautiful home to sell, a few blocks from 18 very long coal trains a day". Think about it!
Cate
offlineMember
Coming home from work today, trying to turn from the waterfront onto Elliot. Waited 25 minutes while a train past. And that is not particularly long as trains go. I have all kinds of ecological concerns from coal dust in Seattle to why are we blowing the tops off the Appalachian Mts to extract coal. But purely selfishly, I don't want more trains to sit behind.
brown_eyes
offlineMember
I was surprised to find the coal trains are already coming through Seattle. I live near the tracks and haven't noticed any coal dust. I think all economic development has some some environmental impact and one has to decide if the impact is "worth it" to you. Even if the majority of jobs created by the coal exports only last for the 3 years of construction, that could be a huge difference for those families and the communities outside of Seattle that have suffered much more than we have during this recession.
Probably a much worse environmental impact is the exponential growth of the human population but I don't see much agitation for a one child - or less - policy. In fact, we give economic breaks to people with children. I would never suggest such a thing, but I just find it odd to find all this emotion over coal trains. It doesn't seem like a rational debate. I don't feel like I can trust the environmentalists, which I normally would, because a lot of their rhetoric just sounds hysterical.
If trains are causing traffic difficulties, then perhaps we should ask for more overpasses, like the one by the stadium, rather than just stopping the whole project. Fast transit is good for all transport, not just coal.
As you can tell, I'm leaning toward pro-coal terminal. I could still be persuaded that this is a bad idea but I haven't heard a trust-worthy argument that was compelling.
Corvus
onlineMember
As others have stated there are already 11 or so trains loaded with coal and other goods traveling through Seattle en route to BHam already. Both UW and the Puget Sound Keepers have done several tests looking for evidence of coal dust and have found negligible amounts. This is due in large part to a more than 10 year effort by BNSF and others to mitigate the dust from rail car travel. This has been accomplished through loading techniques and a misting of a chemical spray over the top.
http://www.bnsf.com/customers/what-can-i-ship/coal/coal-dust.html
It is true that the benefits for communities along the way are minimal but there are still jobs to be had both in the production, shipping, handling and loading of the coal for export. I am no great fan of strip mining, but we need to consider all sides of the issue and that includes whether or not we shouldn't get something back from china beside cheap crap in terms of trade.
I am a big fan of the Sierra Club, but I think they are doing a huge dis-service to themselves and their liberal base by painting this as a coal dust issue. It doesn't have legs. Charge the Chinese exorbitant amounts for the coal, charge BNSF more use taxes to pay for underpasses, whatever, any thing. But the whole dust thing is really just pandering to simple minds.
And Ernie, you are probably correct, we might not export the most oil, but we already export more refined hydrocarbon than most and could surpass everyone. Fracking is a whole separate issue, but there is enough oil in the San Juan Basin and other places available through fracking to completely dwarf the reserves of the entire middle east.
We Americans have made fortunes pillaging the rest of the world's resources but that process has become less and less tenable. Perhaps it is time we took a more realistic look at our own resources.
Cate
offlineMember
The argument that compels me is that since the 1970's most coal mining in the United States is by the Mountaintop removal method. We are quite literally destroying the mountains of Appalachia to send coal to China. To burn it here when there are other better methods of energy production. If you ever have a chance go drive the Blue Ridge Parkway, they are as beautiful as our Cascades, our Olympics but the region has little political voice and the mountains are being destroyed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaintop_removal_mining
Corvus
onlineMember
Not any more Cate. Wyoming surpassed Appalachia some time ago and they use open pit mines...
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/thunder/
I would much rather see development of solar and other renewable energy sources and I think that we will eventually see the light and follow Germany's lead (pun intended) but in the meanwhile, the coal will come from somewhere and I am happy it is here and not some place we have to invade and subjugate to get at it.
Yes we need to power past coal (that is catchy!) but standing by the tracks with a 'no dust' sign is just plain juvenile.
Cate
offlineMember
Corvus - I'm not so impressed by Wyoming's and Montana's open pit mines either. However they do it, ripping coal from the ground to send overseas makes no sense for our nation. I agree solar, find, wave action energy are all cleaner and less destructive.
Corvus
onlineMember
Ripping coal from the ground to sell overseas at tremendous profit, or better yet, to lord it over the Chinese and force them to adopt fair equitable trade practices with the US makes total sense. Do we want to see manufacturing return to the US? One load of coal for one load of stupid McDonald's toys. If people really wanted to stop the coal trains, they wouldn't buy crap from China or better yet, we wouldn't worship Steve Jobs as some sort of demigod. My point is simple. China needs the coal as much as we seem to want cheap crap. Having the coal gives us tremendous equalizing power which we don't seem to want to use. Instead of prattling about dust, we, the Sierra Club etal. should be demanding the Chinese make concessions for every lump of coal whether that is in payments which we use to improve our coal burning infrastructure, or simply demand they burn it in ways which diminish their own foot print.
Cate
offlineMember
If we provide cheap coal to China they have no incentive to develop solar and wind sources. If we keep producing cheap coal for our use we have no incentive to develop other energy sources. Don't buy crap. Not McDonalds or Jobs.
OingoBoingo
offlineMember
It's all about the money. There are some who believe or want others to believe that those resources extracted from the ground here at home are benefiting our energy needs.
It's all part of the world demand for oil, gas coal and whatever can be bought and sold on the open market. Those corporate miners, drillers, pipeliners, and frackers don't give a rat's ass about benefiting anyone except to make a profit.
Cate, it seems China already has some fine solar panels and we don't want them:
"The Commerce Department issued a final ruling Wednesday that calls for hefty tariffs on most solar panels imported from China, arguing they've been illegally subsidized and dumped on the U.S. market."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2012/10/10/us-tariffs-chinese-solar-panels/1625679/
Ernie
onlineMember
OingoBoingo +1
My contention is that as part of the EIS we need to look at whether the benefits to our communities (jobs, taxes, economic expansion) are worth the impact (congestion at crossings, impact on passenger service, potential environmental impact), and make sure it's a fair deal for everyone.
Unfortunately, our country doesn't have a comprehensive energy strategy, so it's just a scramble between the various energy companies to extract and sell our natural resources for the highest profit.
Does anyone else think it is interesting that during all the discussions about reducing our nation's debt, energy policy and the tax rates on natural resource extraction were not mentioned once? Tax higher incomes and cut services to the poor and elderly, but don't even dare to discuss the revenue potential of the current boom in resource extraction.
Ballard Sucks Now
offlineMember
Most hilarious thing I've heard in this argument:
The mayor of Seattle expressing his heartfelt concerns that coal trains would cause increased traffic congestion and inconvenience drivers in Seattle.
So sincere, so genuine. What a great, honest guy!
SeaSpider
offlineMember
My big concern is more about the railroad bridge in Ballard. Have any of you been under it lately? There are literally fist sized holes that have rusted through some of the beams. I don't claim to be a civil engineer but holes rusting all the way through steel girders can't be good. I have to wonder if the bridge can handle the additional traffic or what the plans are to replace/rebuild the bridge before allowing the additional trains.
brown_eyes
offlineMember
I doubt it matters what the extra trains are carrying. Any economic upturn is likely to involve more train traffic. From my perspective this may be related, but is mostly a separate, issue.
ballardgirl
offlineMember
Perhaps this coal deal may be good for the supplier, china or a few railroad or port workers. That does not mean that I will welcome 18 long trains per day, coal dust etc. so Seattle is negatively impacted to provide a few jobs in B-ham and a bunch in China. It will also hinder the profitable port opportunities we have. The entire concept is stupid! FYI, we buy local whenever we can, and avoid cheap plastic junk from china, which the coal in question will serve. This whole scenario does nothing for our community, it just takes advantage of it. In my mind, it's kind of like, "if I could park a bunch of cars in your yard, and charge money for that, I would be so much better off, don't you want that?" And if Bellingham wants these coal trains, why don't they build a direct route, rather than polluting the gorge and all of western washington?
just_another_norwegian
offlineMember
The proposed rail route *IS* the most direct route (you think they're going to dig a tunnel under Mt. Rainier and build a new rail line in a perfectly straight line diagonally across the state for this? How clueless are you? Do you have the slightest connection to reality?).
Look. The "coal trains" boogeyman is a made-up, nonsense issue - it's pushed by dishonest hucksters manipulating ignorant rubes.
Here's a news flash for you: "Coal trains" go through Ballard every day. More than a few of them. Have they been bothering you a lot? They don't bother me. Where's the "coal dust" from them? Nobody can find any. It's a phony issue.
You know, I can respect someone who honestly says, their real concern is global climate change, burning coal is bad for that, and that's all they care about - they don't care about the economic impact, don't care a whit about working people losing their jobs. But none of the opponents have the balls to come out and say that (because they would be exposed as the ignorant zealots that they are). Instead, they fabricate all this nonsense about coal dust and other phony arguments. Like McGinn's sudden concern about traffic congestion mentioned upthread. Riiiiight....McGinn has always made reducing traffic congestion his top priority!
Honestly, I could actually buy the argument about the overall downsides of burning coal (I don't think that's a good idea). But I'm so tired of the the local green mafia that has been taking every opportunity to stick it to anyone who doesn't agree with 100% of their agenda, that I'm really looking forward to watching them lose this one. I've had it up to here with the enviro-liars making my life more and more difficult, and if anyone pushes back against their agenda, they tell you tough luck, they rule this city, and you have to follow their dictates.
So I'm fine with the coal trains. Bring 'em on. Lots of 'em. Dig that coal, melt the damn icecaps, and bring it on.
great idea
onlineMember
I actually appreciate the local green mafia doing the leg-work for me.
and how exactly would I be an 'ignorant zealot' when I say the economic impact is puny compared to the social impact? jobs at any cost aren't particularly desirable.
and just as you're sick of 'enviro-liars' making your life more difficult, I'm sick of big coal industry making my life more difficult.
my time is too valuable to sit at a train crossing.
onederfullone
offlineMember
"I actually appreciate the local green mafia doing the leg-work for me."
L.A.Z.Y, and stupid.
Plus, if you say 'uncle', I'll even tell the "big coal industry" to ignore you.
"my time is too valuable to sit at a train crossing."
But, you'll get lots of time to be stupid on MyBallard anyway. win-win.
ballardmike
offlineMember
I LOVE sitting in traffic, burning imported fuel, waiting for a long line of US natural resource rolling past to go on ships for an 8,000-mi journey across the Pacific to support an up and coming economic competitor.
Maybe I can buy some cheap crap at Walmart when I finally get home.
onederfullone
offlineMember
If I were you, lol, I'd buy your cheap crap on line, save yourself from the mostly domestic cartage fee.
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