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Food for thought...

(19 posts)
  1. Corvus

    Corvus

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    I am not sure how true this statement is and considering I saw it on Facebook, it is likely to be propaganda at best (for instance, why does it say "West Germany?", but still it has a way of making one think...

    "Last year, handguns killed
    48 people in Japan,
    8 in Great Britain,
    34 in Switzerland,
    52 in Canada,
    58 in Israel,
    42 in West Germany,
    and 10,728 in the US."

    I wonder what the number for Mexico is? Oh yeah, they don't count because they used assault rifles made by and purchased in the US.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  2. Ernie

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    Because of widely differing populations, it's probably better to compare gun murder rates:

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
    (Note that some of these stats are kind of old, see right-hand column)

    Doesn't really change the rankings but the difference in the rates isn't as dramatic.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  3. BuffaloHawk

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    http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

    The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders or assailants may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). In another study, regardless of storage practice, type of gun, or number of firearms in the home, having a gun in the home was associated with an increased risk of firearm homicide and suicide in the home (Dahlberg, Ikeda and Kresnow, 2004). Persons who own a gun and who engage in abuse of intimate partners such as a spouse are more likely to use a gun to threaten their intimate partner. (Rothman et al, 2005). Individuals in possession of a gun at the time of an assault are 4.46 times more likely to be shot in the assault than persons not in possession (Branas et al, 2009). It would appear that, rather than being used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  4. RichY

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  5. pennygirl

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    I believe the correct figure for Great Britain is 51, which I find quite shocking to be honest with you. I thought it was much, much less than that.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  6. MidWest

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    This is truly sad:

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

    Posted 6 months ago #
  7. Mondoman

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    The interesting thing is that Switzerland has a higher household gun ownership rate than we do (since all adult (males?) have to keep their military assault rifles at home, ready for use, up to age 50 or 60 or something), but apparently a lower rate of gun violence.
    The mind is what we need to influence.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  8. MidWest

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    Switzerland actually has that "well regulated militia", trains the people in care, use and storage of firearms, and has a completely different culture around guns than the USA.

    We could certainly learn a lot from them...

    Posted 6 months ago #
  9. Corvus

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    Rest easy everybody. It has all been figure out for us! The reason we have so many wackos shooting up schools is because we told God s/he isn't welcome there any more. I'm so glad it has been made clear.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UE9Jr0dZK4Q
    and
    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/

    Of course, what this prick is missing is that I don't want his god in schools.

    Just as a dog will resemble the owner, so too will the God resemble the preacher. Therefore, this man is correct and I do not want his god in my daughter's school. By his own reasoning, this unwanted loser of a god will allow the murder children apparently because his feelings are hurt.

    Yep, it's all been figured out for us.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  10. iPlod

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    "The mind is what we need to influence."

    True that, Mondoman.

    "I wonder what the number for Mexico is? Oh yeah, they don't count because they used assault rifles made by and purchased in the US."

    Hey Corvus, you need to read up on the facts about "Operation Fast and Furious" which has resulted in US Attorney General Eric Holder being held in criminal contempt of congress.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  11. Corvus

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    Ok so I need to amend the statement to 'made by, sold by, and purchased in the US'. What is your point? Mexico does count? I'm sure they do but they aren't on the list. My point is that there were were nearly 50,000 drug related deaths in Mexico in 2012 and sure some of them weren't from US made weapons (some were probably machetes and gasoline and shovels) but a large majority were committed with US made fire arms.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  12. iPlod

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    ..."but a large majority were committed with US made fire arms."

    State your source, please.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  13. iPlod

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    mmm hmmm, I thought so.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  14. woodchucker

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    Posted 6 months ago #
  15. Corvus

    Corvus

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    No you didn't "thought" at all. If you had you might have suspected I was away from the computer screen.

    Here is one...

    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57422753/atf-mexico-seized-68000-guns-made-in-or-imported-to-united-states-since-2006/

    Search it yourself if you are so interested.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  16. Corvus

    Corvus

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    Now here is some junk food for thought. It is some kind of spam that was in my junk email this morning. It isn't the normal spam and I have my suspicions who might of sent it, but we'll save that...

    The primary-school shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, approximately 45 miles from the Colt Arms Factory, is just another one in the long line of government psyops designed to persuade the public to allow the government to take away their guns, and their means to defend themselves against the government and the banksters that the politicians really serve.

    The small children murders are designed to create hysterical emotions in women to get them to demand that guns are banned. If that doesn’t work they will continue with their evil agenda with worse and worse atrocities on younger children, until they get their way and disarm the people, so that they cannot fight back against government tyranny.

    Newtown is the U.S.A.’s Dunblane, which was orchestrated in Scotland in 1996 by the British establishment, to whip up hysteria in order to ban all handguns from the U.K. It was a follow-up to the Hungerford Massacre in England in 1987, which was carried out by mind-controlled Michael Ryan, who then shot himself so he could not be questioned, and it was used to ban semi-automatic rifles and shotguns.

    It’s always the same people behind it – the gun-grabbers who want the people to be defenceless against the gun-grabbers’ employers – the banksters who own all of the politicians. They get their politicians to pass legislation for them, in order to remove the people’s freedoms and means of defending themselves, and enslave them in a draconian police-state, under a mountain of debt, and then exterminate the useless-eaters.

    The Dunblane massacre was supposedly carried out by Thomas Hamilton, who was a paedophile and procurer of children, for a high level paedophile ring involving senior members of the Tony Blair Labour-Party shadow-cabinet and others. The massacre served two purposes, it achieved their desired handgun-ban and killed the abused children, so they could not be witnesses against the elite-paedophiles. They then had the findings of the inquiry sealed for 100 years, which is proof of the above.

    Like Newtown there were two shooters, Hamilton and a hit-man who shot Hamilton and made it look like Hamilton committed suicide after shooting 16 children, so that he couldn’t be questioned. Hamilton was found in the school gymnasium slumped against a wall and still gurgling, when an off-duty policeman PC Grant McCutcheon entered the gym and saw two semi-automatic pistols, one on either side of Hamilton’s body.

    The autopsy revealed that Hamilton was killed with a .38 revolver. These people always slip-up with their crimes. There was no .38 revolver for him to have shot himself with. Thus, there was a second shooter who killed Hamilton.

    Similarly, the first reports from Newtown were of two shooters, just like mind-controlled James Holmes in the Denver Batman Cinema massacre, the story then quickly changes to just one.

    Columbine was similar, in that a team of shooters in black outfits were seen there and the two accused were on mind-altering prescription-drugs.

    Wake up and see the pattern and their modus operandi and don’t fall for it. Never let them take your guns, except from your cold dead hands.

    All of these are staged events to whip-up hysterical public support for banning the people from having guns. It works the same in every country – Hungerford in England, Dunblane in Scotland, Port Arthur in Australia and the list in America is endless, because of the Second Amendment and the people having a pro-gun culture. That makes it much more difficult to break the Americans’ love of guns and the Second Amendment, which was put in place to protect the people from the government.

    Gun bans work well for tyrants. They worked well for Hitler, Stalin and Chairman Mao, to name just three.

    If you want to stop these massacres, wake-up and get rid of the banksters, their puppet-politicians and all gun-grabbers; arm teachers and ban gun-free zones.

    From one who can see the pattern and hopes to enable you to see it too.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  17. biophile87

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    As a society, last week catalyzed us into focusing our energy to FIX something. Will these lives and efforts and thoughts be *wasted* on a futile argument with an overfunded interest group, or will it be spent bringing to light the underlying social problem?

    Yes, there are many reasons for gun violence, but mental health dysfunction seems to be inviting our attention more and more with every recent tragedy similar to last week's.

    Below, I copied what's on this link: http://thebluereview.org/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother/

    I am Adam Lanza’s Mother
    It's time to talk about mental illness
    Liza Long

    Friday’s horrific national tragedy—the murder of 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School in New Town, Connecticut—has ignited a new discussion on violence in America. In kitchens and coffee shops across the country, we tearfully debate the many faces of violence in America: gun culture, media violence, lack of mental health services, overt and covert wars abroad, religion, politics and the way we raise our children. Liza Long, a writer based in Boise, says it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

    Three days before 20 year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.

    “I can wear these pants,” he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.

    “They are navy blue,” I told him. “Your school’s dress code says black or khaki pants only.”

    “They told me I could wear these,” he insisted. “You’re a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!”

    “You can’t wear whatever pants you want to,” I said, my tone affable, reasonable. “And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You’re grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school.”

    I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.

    A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7 and 9 year old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.

    That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn’t have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.

    We still don’t know what’s wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He’s been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.

    At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he’s in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He’s in a good mood most of the time. But when he’s not, watch out. And it’s impossible to predict what will set him off.

    Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district’s most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can’t function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30-1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.

    The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, “Look, Mom, I’m really sorry. Can I have video games back today?”

    “No way,” I told him. “You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly.”

    His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. “Then I’m going to kill myself,” he said. “I’m going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself.”

    That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.

    “Where are you taking me?” he said, suddenly worried. “Where are we going?”

    “You know where we are going,” I replied.

    “No! You can’t do that to me! You’re sending me to hell! You’re sending me straight to hell!”

    I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waiving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. “Call the police,” I said. “Hurry.”

    Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn’t escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I’m still stronger than he is, but I won’t be for much longer.

    The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—“Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…”

    At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You’ll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.

    For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, “I hate you. And I’m going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here.”

    By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I’ve heard those promises for years. I don’t believe them anymore.

    On the intake form, under the question, “What are your expectations for treatment?” I wrote, “I need help.”

    And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.

    I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza’s mother. I am Dylan Klebold’s and Eric Harris’s mother. I am Jason Holmes’s mother. I am Jared Loughner’s mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho’s mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns. But it’s time to talk about mental illness.

    According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.

    When I asked my son’s social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. “If he’s back in the system, they’ll create a paper trail,” he said. “That’s the only way you’re ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you’ve got charges.”

    I don’t believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael’s sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn’t deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.

    With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation’s largest treatment centers in 2011.

    No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

    I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

    God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

    (Originally published at The Anarchist Soccer Mom.)

    Posted 6 months ago #
  18. pennygirl

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    The accusations in that email are outrageous.

    Posted 6 months ago #
  19. donarb

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    Actually, Fast and Furious highlights just what is wrong in this country about guns. Prosecutors in Washington were so cowed by the NRA they wouldn't allow agents to investigate (or even refer the man for welfare fraud) a man on food stamps who bought $300,000 worth of guns over a six month period. Another jobless man paid $10,000 for a .50 caliber sniper rifle, but prosecutors claimed they didn't have enough evidence that he didn't buy it for himself.

    Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

    Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

    ...

    "[P]urchasing multiple long guns in Arizona is lawful," Patrick Cunningham, the U.S. Attorney's then–criminal chief in Arizona would later write. "Transferring them to another is lawful and even sale or barter of the guns to another is lawful unless the United States can prove by clear and convincing evidence that the firearm is intended to be used to commit a crime."

    ...

    It was nearly impossible in Arizona to bring a case against a straw purchaser. The federal prosecutors there did not consider the purchase of a huge volume of guns, or their handoff to a third party, sufficient evidence to seize them. A buyer who certified that the guns were for himself, then handed them off minutes later, hadn't necessarily lied and was free to change his mind. Even if a suspect bought 10 guns that were recovered days later at a Mexican crime scene, this didn't mean the initial purchase had been illegal. To these prosecutors, the pattern proved little. Instead, agents needed to link specific evidence of intent to commit a crime to each gun they wanted to seize.

    This article is a real eye-opener, notice how the furor over this has died down, after politicians in the NRA's pocket realized this would cast them and their benefactors in a negative light?

    http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

    Posted 6 months ago #

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