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Mental Health and Guns

(123 posts)

Started 5 months ago by Edog
Latest reply from phoo

Edog

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As long as we are looking at the mental health side of gun violence, let start looking at the mental heath of advocates propagating the use of guns.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/tennessee-armed-teachers.php?ref=fpa

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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Mental health of liberals should be first up.

After that, say, in 2020, you could look at everyone else.

Posted 5 months ago #
JM

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Seems like teachers have more than enough to do already – without adding armed security guard to their job description.

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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apparently not

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nssz9I5uDvE

not enough of that, imo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql5uI9zUif8&feature=endscreen

Yeah, I want to be a teacher in America.

Where do I sign up for this crap?

Let's talk about guns, lmfao.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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Oh Oneder, you want to talk about idiots with more guns than education! You want to trade links? We will be here for days.

http://youtu.be/GQpfQd1397E

Fact is people own guns like this because they fantasize about killing someone. Of course the NRA has conditioned us all just to sit by and think that there is some technical range application for this.

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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"Oh Oneder, you want to talk about idiots with more guns than education!"

I'd love to respond, but you sound more drunk than I am, which takes serious effort.

fwiw, I don't fantasize about killing anyone, so you are just talking dog.

Maybe it will poop soon.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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Yes, I blame teachers unions. Our children need a home grown militia of fat guted hicks in cheap t-shirts, more than educators!

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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Notice how "a home grown militia of fat guted(sp?) hicks" that can't even use a thousand dollar scope scares you?

Let's get real, dog, you aren't afraid of them, neither am I. Let's be afraid of you drinking. We can move on from there...

Posted 5 months ago #
collingswood

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Many are espousing having more guns in school as a means of making schools safe. I Have a two word comeback for them: Fort Hood!

Being surrounded by 20,000 well armed professional soldiers was not a deterrent, so thinking a poorly trained kindergarten teacher will deter anybody is ludicrous.

Besides, it just makes more guns available to killers. Witness the Rodney King incident. The police said their main fear was that their own weapons would be turned on them.

Posted 5 months ago #
woodchucker

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The soldiers at Fort Hood had their guns locked up. It was another gun free zone. SOP

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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If teachers aren't going to arm themselves, the kids are going to have to do it.... </sarcasm>

http://fox13now.com/2012/12/17/west-kearns-elementary-student-brings-gun-to-school/

KEARNS, Utah – A 6th grade student brought an unloaded handgun to West Kearns Elementary School Monday.
The 11-year-old boy allegedly told other students his parents encouraged him to bring a gun to school for protection following the shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut on Friday.
The boy reportedly pulled the gun, a .22-caliber pistol, out of his backpack during recess Monday morning.
“At recess, he pointed a gun to my head and said he was going to kill me,” said Isabel Rios, one of the boy’s fellow 6th grade students.

Posted 5 months ago #
Corvus

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If I was still a teacher, I'd be carrying. I am no pro-gun advocate and I generally find the pro-gun protectionists reprehensible, but schools have become targets. I'm not quite sure what to say about that and really haven't wrapped my brain around it - is killing those who deserve it just passe? Targeting the most innocent has become some sort of one-up-manship. Whatever the reason, I wouldn't work in any capacity in any school any more unless I was prepared to shoot the bastard.

Just saying.

Posted 5 months ago #
oldguybc

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Just a lot of thoughts about that insane and cowardly act of last week, had to happen on my birthday, all one can do is shake their head and wonder just what part of man's history of inhumanity towards his fellow man this terrible event falls under.
Don't really see the real reason for owning one of these assault weapons, have hunted before but they are not accurate enough to use there, I guess the police organizations have a use for these but to let them get into the hands of an insane person is even more insane.

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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@Corvus, judging by recent events, you'd need to be packing working at the mall's sunglasses kiosk, movie theatre snack bar, Sikh temple, army base, and as a congresswoman.

Just saying.

</sarcasm>

Posted 5 months ago #
Corvus

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@ Ernie - I hear what you are saying but there seems to be many more school shootings than all the others you mention. Remember when post offices seemed to be all the murdering rage? Well now it is schools.

Posted 5 months ago #
Corvus

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@ OGBC - a friend of mine shared a meme going around FB today explaining that Obama gets heavily armed security but feels we shouldn't be allowed to own assault rifles to protect our family. I won't dwell too long on what retarded bullshit I think that is. However, I did respond that "I didn't know he lived in such a shitty neighborhood".

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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I have been told on fb that I am not allowed to (or shouldn't comment) on this because I am British. But I have lived here for 20 years so I think I should be able to. Also, we had Dunblane. After that happened new weapons laws were put in place to try and prevent it from happening again. It hasn't.

I understand that guns can't be banned, but why are weapons that should only be in the hands of the military available to the general public? Surely a ban on assault weapons makes sense? Why do you need something that can fire 30 bullets in a matter of seconds? And don't tell me it is to hunt deer.

Posted 5 months ago #
Corvus

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After the Oslo mass shooting, I think it would be silly to deny the international aspect of the problem. It is something we all face, Penny, so I see no reason you or anybody else couldn't comment.

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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It's actually tricky Corvus. You would be surprised how many people are offended by a non US Citizen commenting on something that has happened here. It has also happened here (meaning this forum) once or twice but that was a while ago.

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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Watching Piers Morgan right now, he just called his gun nut guest a "stupid man" no one is telling him he can't comment. I think your FB "friends" are full of it....

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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I saw that earlier Ernie. But bear in mind that just yesterday or the day before a guest of Piers said the exact same thing to him. There's something about being a non citizen that gets the hackles up.

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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Only someone with a weak argument would claim that someone shouldn't have a right to comment because of their place of birth.

I mean Obama was born in Kenya and he's POTUS!

</sarcasm!!!!!!!>

Posted 5 months ago #
Cate

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Penny,
You've chosen to live here twenty years, you pay taxes here everytime you shop and, perhaps most importantly, you have raised your children here. What happens here in the United States directly affects you and your family. Of course you have the right to comment.

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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Thank you Cate and Ernie. It is very strange sometimes to be honest with you. It happens more often that you would think. I think it's because I chose to retain British Citizenship rather than becoming a US Citizen.

Posted 5 months ago #
woodchucker

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Fwiw, I always enjoy your comments, even though we may not always agree.
Please keep them coming PG!

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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Cheers woodchucker!

Posted 5 months ago #
GAM

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Penny, it strikes me that people who don't want you to speak because of where you're from are scared of ideas...and those are the people that scare me!

So, can anyone tell me how the right to bear arms has been narrowly defined as "all guns, regardless of use or purpose"? After all, no one is arguing citizens have a right to nuclear arms, for instance. What is the origin of what is a bearable arm and what isn't?

And bonus points to whoever can explain to me in a calm, reasoned manner, why it is so important that citizens should be allowed to own high powered guns in the volume that these wackos do.

I feel like too often when people meekly suggest that perhaps automatic weapons might best be limited to some degree, the suggestion is miscast as a ban on all guns whatsoever, and the suggestion ends up drowned out by cries of "what about the sportsmen?".

I also tire of the arguments that because tragedies continue to occur under gun laws that the gun laws are not an answer. They are not THE answer. There are many answers. But gun laws are an important part of the total solution towards ending gun violence. And until someone can present a perfect solution, I'm happy to make do with the best we've got so far. That includes gun laws, social services for people at risk to offend, ending the glorification of violence in the media, etc.

Posted 5 months ago #
LandsOnTwoFeet

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In my opinion, I think the bigger issue is mental health and the dangers of living in a politically correct society. There is more info coming out about this boy. Crazy crazy stuff that a lot of people noticed. In our current society, we're not supposed to offend anyone if they act odd. We're supposed to be compassionate and understanding. And we should. Except when it's clear that they are too odd and socially inept. Big red flag there. We need to step in, offend someone, and get them help. Pointing out the obvious is not being a bigot or racist or a hater. It's helpful! To the person who needs help and to society as a whole. When people ignore the obvious at the detriment of their own health, that's a sickness (and that's a good definition of "politically correct"). If I were back in high school and someone clutched their briefcase and backed up against a wall every time someone walked close to them, I would do something about that! And get others to help. How did society get to where we are today?

Posted 5 months ago #
great idea

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the boy's mother had mental issues also, which didn't help the situation.
nor her giant stockpile of weapons.

penny, that would be ridiculous to bite your tongue. your opinion is just as valid.
when this happened Friday, I initially thought of Dunblane since that was so similar in terms of victims' ages.

corvus, I didn't verify this but I don't think schools are such greater targets than others. they are, however, the ones that stand out more in the aftermath since we view these places as safe-havens where our kids won't encounter such terror.
I'd half-expect to be shot at a mall or movie theater though.

Posted 5 months ago #
boatgeek

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@Corvus: It's not really that much about schools lately. The last few mass shooting incidents are Sandy Hook, Portland Mall, Wisconsin salon, Minneapolis sign company, Wisconsin Sikh temple, Colorado movie theater, California college, California salon, Tucson Congressional meeting, Connecticut distributor business. That takes us back to the beginning of 2010. So the clear message here is to avoid salons and Connecticut, not grade schools. Schools are no more a target than anywhere else.

If armed security is such hot stuff, how did the Lakewood police officers get killed (all armed), and how did Reagan and Brady nearly get killed (surrounded by the best security on the planet)?

I really don't understand the need for rapid fire (>1 round/second or so) or large magazines (>10-12 bullets) for any legal purpose (non-military and non-law enforcement). It's not about hunting--if you can't take down the deer/woodchuck/whatever in two or three shots, you're never going to make it. Also, rapid fire is not particularly conducive to good aim. It's not self defense--if you haven't made yourself "safe" after four or five shots, you aren't going to, not to mention that a shotgun is far more effective as a self defense weapon.

So a question: What purpose do those weapons serve?

Posted 5 months ago #
RichY

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Gam, I can not answer "So, can anyone tell me how the right to bear arms has been narrowly defined as "all guns, regardless of use or purpose"? " directly but here is the section of the constitution in question:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

And Wash state constitution:

SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

Posted 5 months ago #
gracie

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Pennygirl - I totally agree with you on assault rifles. There is No need for these to be in the hands of anyone other than military. Couple of years ago there was a shortage of bullets around here (don't remember why) but gun crimes did go down during that time. So put the control on the bullets. So let's make it illegal to buy bullets - unless you are law enforcement, security field with proper identification for work, and for hunters, you have to possess a hunting license, show your ID, sign your name and it can't be for assault rifles. And you can't buy out of state. Then the gang bangers can do a "throw by" - throwing their empty guns at people as they drive by *L* I know silly idea but something really has to be done. Two incidents at schools since the tragedy - an 11 yr old brought gun to school that mom gave to him for proteciton. At recess he points it at head of a 6 yr old & when she said going to tell, he said he would kill her if she did. Then a 12 yr old brought a gun to school that turned out to be a BB gun. I hate how this world is rotating in the wrong way & getting out of control. The LAST THING when I went to school was thinking about being armed or someone coming into the school shooting.

Posted 5 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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My daughter asked for a squirt gun for Christmas this year. After last Friday that went off the list for Christmas and the foreseeable future.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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Buff, don't let that stop you. I'm pretty sure they have squirters that don't look like guns these days.

I should also mention, when I was growing up one of my best friends was the son of hippies who did not allow toy guns. We still played guns, just with sticks or fingers, later he bought his own toy gun and kept it a secret.

Food for thought!

Posted 5 months ago #
gracie

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Edog - sadly, yes they do. Some "toy" guns are so realistic looking that they are being used in store robberies, etc. One young guy almost got shot by a cop couple of years ago because he was pointing this toy gun, that looked realistic, at the cop. Not a good thing to do! Thankfully he put it down.
But yes, there are still the glow in the dark green, pink, red ones that look totally toy-like but I, personally, don't like any toy guns for kids.

Posted 5 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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This is one of my all time favorite Peter Gabrial songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHviPKJDEs4

He is one of my favorite songwriters.

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/peter+gabriel/family+snapshot_20107495.html

All turned quiet-I have been here before
Lonely boy hiding behind the front door
Friends have all gone home
There's my toy gun on the floor
Come back Mum and Dad
You're growing apart
You know that I'm growing up sad
I need some attention
I shoot into the light

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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Good call re the squirt gun BH. She doesn't need anything like that.

Posted 5 months ago #
great idea

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I disagree about the squirt guns.

I've gotten them for my kids, as well as the ones that shoot nerf 'bullets' w/ suction cups on the tip.

kids love firing things. getting someone wet or shooting a nerf missle at their fanny isn't going to foster a violent attitude.

I wouldn't let them play those shoot 'em up video games though.

Posted 5 months ago #
nwcitizen

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The bigger issues to my mind are why are we such a violent culture? Can't we get our adrenaline rush some other way? In that same vein, why are we so different from Canadians, from Swedes, from Native Americans?

Why haven't we decided as a group that it would be best to provide for ourselves by funding universal healthcare including mental healthcare?

Sure there is fun in hitting a target with something from a distance but why does it have to be an instrument that can kill?

And lastly, why are we so afraid of each other and of "the other"?

Finding answers to the above might result in a better world all around.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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When I was a boy I had a toy that looked just like a 9mm. It had a clip and a barrel/hammer/slide contraption that popped in and out that made it look like a real gun when fired. There was even a small blade in the slide that chopped off the spent caps so they would fly off like old casings. Its amazing you could buy something that looked so real.

We used to run around where this river bank meet a ravine behind a cemetery. And there I'd be in my 7th grade glory commando sweater, old jeans, and combat boots. I'm sure if we did that today, we'd rouse much more suspicion than we did back in the 80s.

Posted 5 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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E - When I was a kid growing up I never heard of anyone being on prescription medicine. If they are over prescribing & masking the problems how will they know how much of a threat the child could become.

Posted 5 months ago #
phoo

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People seem to miss WHY we have a constitutional right to bear arms, which is a very unusual thing for a country. Is it to defend ourselves? Yes, in part. But the other very important part was so that if/when (as it was theorized back then that it was inevitable) that the govt became corrupt and stopped working for its citizens and instead started taking away their rights that the citizens would then be armed enough to rise up against their govt and make things right again. It's an ugly business, but it is one (rather extreme though occasionally necessary) option.

In fact, this is one reason veterans got the benefits they did - after coming back from war (I forget which one) they needed help and the US govt was concerned that there were many well trained, well armed men angry with them and thus gave them benefits to get back on their feet after being away at war.

The US has had guns since we were a country. Even in the 50s, boys took their guns to school during hunting season. They knew what death looked like from hunting animals, so they would never consider doing that to a human. In fact, when a child got a new gun (which wasn't often because they were terribly expensive), they'd bring it to school to show it off. The teachers would take it and shoot it off in front of the assembled children so everyone could admire it. Sound scary? Not really - more people knew how to use a firearm, and knew death and that it was not something to inflict just because you were pissed. How much suffering it caused. Also, you were likely to get offed by someone else with a gun (who knew how to use it) before you could accomplish your goal. With more people educated about death and firearms (also there were different social norms), less Bad Things happened. Of course, some of those changing social norms are double edged swords, but that's another discussion.

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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Even in the 50s, boys took their guns to school during hunting season. They knew what death looked like from hunting animals, so they would never consider doing that to a human. In fact, when a child got a new gun (which wasn't often because they were terribly expensive), they'd bring it to school to show it off. The teachers would take it and shoot it off in front of the assembled children so everyone could admire it.

You do realize we had cities back in the '50's right? what you describe might have happened in an extremely rural area, just as I suppose it could even today. Nobody was bringing rifles to school in urban areas in the '50's or any time before or after.

Oh, and....

With more people educated about death and firearms (also there were different social norms), less Bad Things happened.

I don't think it is accurate to say that less bad things happened per capita, and in some areas more "bad things" happened, like in the Jim Crow south.

Posted 5 months ago #
JM

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I love Phoo's Norman Rockwell world, but that was a fantasy created by an artist with a lot of imagination.

Article the fourth..... A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

This is an 221 year-old antique idea that needs a tune-up. Back then you were lucky to load and fire a shot in one minute. Times have changed and the firepower is beyond what the authors of the US Constitution could ever imagine. The NRA is too powerful and needs to get knocked down a few pegs.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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The right to bear arms is not absolute!

Furthermore the second amendment was not about providing and outlet for violent rebellion to guard against tyranny, it was a way to address national defense in an agrarian nation with no standing army.

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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Ernie - About guns and schools in the 50s, I knew guys who lived in Washington DC during the 50s who brought their own guns to school and participated on their schools shooting team.

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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You were around in the 50s Edog?!

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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No, but worked with some dudes who were!

Posted 5 months ago #
donarb

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The second amendment is not about repelling tyranny. The Constitution spells out exactly one crime, treason. So why would the founders say it is a crime to overthrow the government and in the same document say you can have a gun if you want to do just that?

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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"This is an 221 year-old antique idea that needs a tune-up."

It needs a refresher, like, every responsible adult in society should know all about guns, safely posses them, and make it clear they aren't afraid to use them. Period.

Anything less is simply inexcusable. We are not dependant upon [the whims of] asswipes and nut-fucks, crooks or crack-heads to live a good life. We guarantee it, always, or we lose our rights to be free of those who will take it from us.

If you think it's a joke, you've lost your ability to think, and deserve nothing.

Refresher concluded.

Posted 5 months ago #
Mondoman

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JM, just as with other sometimes-inconvenient amendments in the Bill of Rights, like freedom of speech (look at what is happening in the UK these days!), we can "tune-up" the 2nd Amendment any time we want to. The procedure is very clear in the Constitution. Getting enough of your fellow citizens to agree, now that's a bit tricky!

Posted 5 months ago #
gracie

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onederfullone - I, too, feel it is so antiquated!

Posted 5 months ago #
boatgeek

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It needs a refresher, like, every responsible adult in society should know all about guns, safely posses them, and make it clear they aren't afraid to use them. Period.

Anything less is simply inexcusable. We are not dependant upon [the whims of] asswipes and nut-fucks, crooks or crack-heads to live a good life. We guarantee it, always, or we lose our rights to be free of those who will take it from us.

Hooo-wee. Let me get this straight. To have a free society, every adult needs to own a gun and be ready to blow away anyone who interferes with their ability to live a good life. Where do you live again? I'd hate to accidentally park in front of your house!

You do realize that no society on earth at any time in history has met your standard, right? Not in the colonial era (guns were too expensive for many people unless you were rural enough to need them for hunting), not immediately post-revolution, not now, and heck, not even in lawless places like Somalia (same reasons as the colonial era). So you're trying to tell us that no society anywhere on earth at any time in history has been free? And you're also trying to tell us that your Red Dawn style of urban commando existence will keep the army and cops at bay if they ever try to come and steal your freedoms?

If that makes you feel manlier and freer, I guess that's your right. Didn't work out so well for David Koresh or Randy Weaver, though.

PS: Note in the Second Amendment "A well-regulated militia" The point was that the nation wouldn't have a standing army, so the government couldn't go off on foreign military adventures. Didn't really stop them, and eventually the army grew technical enough that militias wouldn't work, so they got turned into the National Guard.

Posted 5 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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boatgeek - If you know any census takers make sure they avoid oneder's house.

Posted 5 months ago #
pennygirl

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Mondoman...

The UK is actually in the process of amending part of the Public Order Act regarding freedom of speech because it's too vague. They are relaxing it somewhat.

I think what you are referring to is the Leveson Inquiry, which concentrates on the Press.

Or I could be completely wrong, and you are actually talking about the PO Act :-)

Posted 5 months ago #
onederfullone

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"I'd hate to accidentally park in front of your house!"

If you really want to discuss something connected to reality, don't start there.

"Hooo-wee. Let me get this straight."

I'll try, but you seem like, quite opposed to the reality of our situation.

"You do realize that no society on earth at any time in history has met your standard, right?"

Actually, you are quite incorrect.

Maybe you just don't read any history, especially ours.

Posted 5 months ago #
Ernie

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I understand that my mom was quite a good shot in gun club, in the 50's.

Gun club was an organized extra-curricular activity, not the bringing guns cuz it's hunting season and shooting them off in the school yard scenario that phoo was proposing....

Posted 5 months ago #
Edog

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Over on the snowflake thread Oneder just said! "That, or a well-armed protector clearly visible in every school, which I would prefer."

I could not bring myself to respond on that thread as it did not seem like the place, but that is totally fucking nuts. For these gun carrying kooks the answer is always more guns! If there is violence we need more guns, if there is peace we need more guns. If there are guns, we need more guns.

By the by, here is Oneder's idea of a safe neighborhood...

http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=4074&page=2#post-47187

Posted 5 months ago #
boatgeek

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"You do realize that no society on earth at any time in history has met your standard, right?"

Actually, you are quite incorrect.

OK, oneder, put up or shut up. What society has had universal adult gun ownership?

Posted 5 months ago #
phoo

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Ernie: Teacher shooting off guns to show them off and having them kept in a student's locker really did happen, but it's true that it was a small town and not a big city.

I also have no illusions about the 50s being awesome. They had less mass shootings and much different social rules/structures, so some of those rules probably helped avoid mass shootings. However, as I alluded to, many of these rules (possibly the same ones) were truly a double edged sword. They may have found a way to lock up someone that was potentially dangerous even if it wasn't 100% legal, but you also might be denied a driver's license if you had a russian accent, or be institutionalized against your will if you dared like the wrong gender. I sometimes refer to the 50s as a time when "a man could beat his wife in peace." We've definitely made a lot of improvements since then, but we've clearly lost something that was crucial to society.

Posted 5 months ago #

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