I don't understand why you posted that Edog. I don't believe that 1der said he was carrying a gun. I thought he physically stopped the person who had the gun aimed at the cashier.
And after all this time, Rudy's 'sword' post is still hilarious :-)
My Ballard Forum » Open Forum
Mental Health and Guns
(123 posts)-
pennygirl
onlineMemberPosted 5 months ago # -
Edog
offlineMemberI posted it because I think it sheds some light into the world of gun nuts. There is a great deal of fantasy these kooks hold onto, I think many of them dream for the moment when they can get be a vigilante hero, maybe even kill someone.
If you recall, Oneder made the situation more dangerous by confronting the person.
Lastly, not in that particular post, but on that thread Oneder clearly talks about his permit to carry and his "rights" to carry it concealed. Overall I think its a rich look into the kinds of people who have fooled themselves into thinking that a gun makes things safer. I think it fits perfectly on a general thread about gun violence.
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberI thought he wrestled the bloke to the ground and threw the gun out of his reach?
Anyway, before anyone thinks that I am in favor of guns, earlier in that thread I questioned more than once why someone would feel the need to have a gun in a grocery store.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberI know what happened, I was there.
Penny, sometimes you need a few things on your way home...
I make a habit of conceal carry. I can go into any grocery store.
Edog wants to live in a life of maybe. Maybe edog should just live his life. Not my choice, but poop happens. Maybe you just need a little poop bag to deal with it?
Also, I respect your call, fwiw, it's just not my call.
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberYes 1der - but you didn't use your weapon even if you were carrying. That's why I don't understand why it is being used as an example. For it to be relevant to the turn that this thread has taken (more people being armed in certain situations), you would have had to have actually used it as a way of stopping him.
Once again, guns aren't my thing and I don't understand the whole conceal carry, but I still don't see how your story applies here.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberIt doesn't. I wasn't carrying that evening.
I was playing in a local bar, and, well, everybody knows you can't carry while playing in a local bar.
You also can't carry in any school. 'whew', it's a good thing, because if anyone decided to take a gun into a school, they'd be in SO much trouble...
I find it to be specious at best, but I'm just a man.
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberAnyway, the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't accurately portray what people are discussing here. I just wanted everyone to be clear on that before you get the "Oh, 1der thinks he's a tough guy because he is packing" comments.
To be clear everyone - he wasn't carrying that night. What he did was instinctual and had nothing to do with the fact that he thought he was protected due to having a weapon.
Once again - I do not condone carrying a weapon ANYWHERE. But that isn't the point of my posts.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Edog
offlineMember"Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that it doesn't accurately portray what people are discussing here."
In fact you are mistaken, Penny. It is one example, that I think holds generally and shows that some people who are into guns, whether they are carrying or not, seek out trauma.
Which sort of begs thoughts about this
http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/news/News_Releases/2009/09/gun-possession-safety/Which makes me say that people who want to arm teachers, or put guns in school, are bat shit crazy.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberDamn, I should've consulted Penn Medicine before I decided to be independent and an all-around bad ass motherfacebooker
Maybe they've got a study that covers Bruce Lee ideologues as well?
If, while volunteering to read to your children in SSD, and if, I was allowed to carry, and if, some nut job decided to hate folks so much that they wanted to slaughter innocent little children, would you want me to be able to head-shot the bag of poop at fifty paces?
No, you'd prefer we all die. Got it.
Some of my neighbors are quite fatalistic.
Posted 5 months ago # -
great idea
offlineMembersome people shouldn't read to little kids.
just sayin'
good to see those background checks work every now and again.
Posted 5 months ago # -
phoo
offlineMemberThere's something not addressed in that study. Gun ownership is not the same as being trained (even self trained) in a firearm. People who are properly trained know the ramifications that come with drawing down on someone. They also have the muscle memory needed to use the weapon properly in a chaotic emergency situation. A gun may not look complicated, but when you have adrenaline, it is dark, there is a someone coming at you, you just can't rely on your reason to figure out using an unfamiliar tool properly. You should only have to determine whether your life is in danger, whether you have the opportunity to flee and whether it is safe to use the weapon.
This is why there are gun ranges, because you should practice regularly. Once isn't enough. 50 times 2 years ago isn't enough. If you do this, you'll also know your strengths and weaknesses. A firearm doesn't make you invulnerable. It's a tool to be used in extreme conditions when you've run out of options and someone is going to die. And if you do everything correctly and you kill the attacker, you've got a whole other range of problems to deal with. You aren't home free. The police will be having a chat with you, because the fellow who is still alive and has a gun in their hand (or near them because you don't want to be armed when the police show up) is the bad guy until the situation is accurately assessed. People who are properly trained know this and barring some character defect refrain from pulling out a gun except in the situation described.
Are there properly trained gun owners who do dangerous or stupid things? You bet. But the rate of such things happening are lower than gun owners who are not properly trained. They don't treat a firearm as though it is always loaded (thus muzzle sweep themselves or others or even fire when they *think* it is unloaded!), they don't know when it is OK to draw on someone (almost never), they may feel artificially brave instead of using escape as their first option, and they may not be able to operate the gun if they are in a situation where it is called for - they may even have it taken away from them by the attacker.
The genie is out of the bottle - you can't take away firearms at this point without creating an unequal balance between law abiding citizens and criminals.
Posted 5 months ago # -
boatgeek
offlineMember@oneder: And if monkeys flew out of my butt, I'd like a qualified zookeeper nearby. The point of the U Penn study is that having a gun makes you a lot more likely to get shot in an assault. Yes, there is a chance you'd be the bad-ass Steven Seagal look-alike who saves the school in a blaze of glory, but there's an even better chance that you'd end up on the floor dead, and an even better chance than that that one of the students would be harmed by the gun on one of the 99.999999% days that a murderous lunatic doesn't come through the door. You know, like the kid who accidentally shot his sister with the gun his policeman father left in the car.
PS Tell me again where they have universal gun ownership by adults?
PPS You must have shot on the Olympic team if you can head-shoot a dirtbag with a standard pistol at 50 paces. What year were you on the team? What other competitions have you won?
PPPS Didn't the people who trained you for self-defense teach you that you're supposed to shoot for the body, not the head? Easier to hit and stop someone if you shoot at the big target near the center of gravity.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Ernie
offlineMemberwould you want me to be able to head-shot the bag of poop at fifty paces?
LOLLOLLMFAO.....oh, and what boatgeek said.
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberThis thread just makes me sad to be honest with you. It makes me feel that moving back to the UK can't come too soon.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Ernie
offlineMemberThere aren't any dumbasses and blowhards commenting on the interwebs back home?
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberIt isn't that Ernie. This entire thread makes me so sad. I don't know how we have gone beyond the fact the 20 sweet children were gunned down.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Ernie
offlineMemberYeah, you're probably right.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Mondoman
offlineMemberBy the way, pg, you weren't wrong in your response to me about freedom of speech. I was indeed referring to the current brouhaha about the British press and their criminal phone hacking and so forth.
Regarding the school shootings, I'm glad to see that so many of the staff there were willing to directly confront the attacker or shield their students with their own bodies, all the while knowing the personal danger they were going into. That takes a kind of courage I'm not sure I'd have.Posted 5 months ago # -
Corvus
onlineMemberIf your first reaction to the shootings is to think "oh shit, Obama/liberals are going to try to take my guns!" then your priorities as a human being suck.
Posted 5 months ago # -
eric
onlineMemberit is a sad state of affairs.
lol @ onedie - like we really need MORE self proclaimed bad-asses packin' heat...
i am also struck by just how many of these "lone gunman" nutjobs we are producing here. what is wrong with this picture?
Posted 5 months ago # -
Cate
offlineMember"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. And then the whole world would be blind and toothless." (From Fiddler on the Roof quoting from both the Torah and Gandhi)
Perhaps we honor these students and teachers best in seeking redemption and healing.
Posted 5 months ago # -
phoo
offlineMemberCorvus - I agree with you. Similarly a LOT of folks' knee jerk reaction was "Must ban all the things!"
Posted 5 months ago # -
ballardgirl
offlineMemberFirst, I would like to express my ultimate sorrow for those affected by the Newtown massacre. Second, I know 2 types of people when it comes to our right to bear arms, those with no desire for guns at all, and those who own more than a dozen firearms. Sadly, there seems to be no reasonable middle ground with a person owning a hunting rifle or two and a handgun for home protection. I also agree with Phoo on training and being able to effectively use said firearms under pressure. Most of us would not be able to handle the task and would be better served with a kitchen knife, or by breaking a knee or two.
Posted 5 months ago # -
OingoBoingo
offlineMember+Phoo
'The genie is out of the bottle - you can't take away firearms at this point without creating an unequal balance between law abiding citizens and criminals.'
Guns, like alcohol, are here to stay. Gun use and safety should be a rite of passage for U.S. citizenry. Having a respect for and recognizing proper use of a weapon would go a long way to leveling the playing field for gun knowledge.
The most effective firearm is a simple 'point and shoot' shotgun. Anarchy happens sometimes.
Posted 5 months ago # -
JM
offlineMemberThe NRA has a jobs plan, armed security at every school in America. Would it work at Ballard High School?
Posted 5 months ago # -
BuffaloHawk
offlineMemberThe NRA & Westboro Baptist Church can both go to Facebooking H*ell !!!!!
Posted 5 months ago # -
JM
offlineMemberWill the next PTA project be reloading cartridges instead of a bake sale?
Posted 5 months ago # -
BuffaloHawk
offlineMemberHome Schooling gets more attractive every day.
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMemberYeah...positions available to parents or members of the community - crossing guard, playground monitor, homework help, armed guard...
Posted 5 months ago # -
BuffaloHawk
offlineMemberI wonder if the NRA will foot the bill to also instal guard towers at schools.
Posted 5 months ago # -
eric
onlineMembervery sad and dsiturbing state of affairs on many levels.
*extra classy of the NRA to chime in around the same time as the tolling of the bells for the victims.
Posted 5 months ago # -
great idea
offlineMemberif they recruit volunteers to patrol schools with guns there will be many more 'Trayvon Martin-type' cases where some vigilante kills an innocent.
some poor father will be running into the school with his kid's lunch and get pumped full of bullets.Posted 5 months ago # -
BuffaloHawk
offlineMemberWTF .. Here we go again !!!
Four people were killed, including the gunman, and three state troopers were injured Friday in a series of shootings over a wide area of central Pennsylvania, authorities said.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberI find it a bit odd we are discussing guns in the midst of an aberrant absence of mental health.
I give this thread up as a case study of an absence of mental health at large.
We seem to be 'special', demographically speaking, for said absence.
Anyway, for the record, the NRA is spot on, albeit late to the party.
We know you all don't give a crap about kids, but you all say it's for the kids when you burden us with taxes to pay for union gangsters, you support zero tolerance for guns in schools, you support free lunch.
Thank God Johnny doesn't need to bring a gun to school to get fed. Maybe you should feed every Johnny, quit searching every Johnny for his little plastic G.I. Joe gun, and maybe even teach math, reading and writing.
Or...we can involve the liberal crooks further, double down on zero tolerance of guns.
Double zero tolerance.
I'm game, I'm doubling down on zero tolerance of stupidity.
Back to the weather, Sam.
Merry Christmas.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Ernie
offlineMemberWhat would the rent-a-cops be doing during the 99.999999% of the time that they're not taking out a heavily armed, crazed killers with a single head shot?
Probably getting hassled and antagonized to the point where they pull their weapon on smart-assed teens.
I can't think of a more wrong-headed response from the NRA, what a bunch of dumbfu**s.
Merry Christmas.
Posted 5 months ago # -
great idea
offlineMember"What would the rent-a-cops be doing during the 99.999999% of the time that they're not taking out a heavily armed, crazed killers with a single head shot?"
probably teaching a shooting class to kids if the NRA had their way.
although a math tutor would be more useful.
merry christmas.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember"rent-a-cops"...and "probably teaching a shooting class to kids if the NRA had their way."
and..."a math tutor would be more useful."
Perhaps you useless idiots don't understand simple math, but it doesn't mean your kids shouldn't follow suit.
to the first point, if you don't appreciate 'rent-a-cops' you really are a
- dumb
motherfacebooker
Not that it surprises me.
Posted 5 months ago # -
teigyr
offlineMemberTrayvon's looking not so innocent right now though he's still pretty much dead. The media pretty much f'd that up and there was bias without knowing all the facts.
After hearing/reading about gun free zone massacres vs. non gun free zone shootings, it seems like the gun free zone victims don't have much of a chance at all. I'm of the impression that if someone wants a gun (and did anyone read about this kid's whackjob mother?), they can get one whether it be buying it or stealing it. More intensive background checks need to be done but harsher penalties on gun owners who leave their guns unsecured (and this includes guns stolen from homes) need to happen. I think our country is in an interesting position, too, being that even if things like assault rifles are banned they can easily be brought over the border and purchased. I'm not sure a ban does much of anything but heavier accountability sure would, for those who buy their guns legally, that is.
I think were I to be in a mall and someone came in trying to shoot as many people as possible, I'd hope somebody in that mall had a concealed weapon permit.
Posted 5 months ago # -
great idea
offlineMemberI'd wait for Paul Blart, mall cop to come tase the mother f*cker!
we had a rent-a-cop at our high school which was the biggest joke.
he was paid to keep us in! trust me, one guy's not going to keep 1000 kids safe.Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember..."trust me"...
Trust me, I never trust stupid.
..."one guy's not going to keep 1000 kids safe."
Following your logic, lol, we don't need any cops, let alone the few we've got.
"Paul Blart"???
You really are an idiot.
You must be the 'Don't taze me bro!!!" imbecile.
"we had a rent-a-cop at our high school which was the biggest joke."
You survived.
Makes you the biggest joke.
Posted 5 months ago # -
boatgeek
offlineMemberan aberrant absence of mental health.
It's an amazing surprise! Nothing like this has ever happened before! Who could have predicted! What? There were four other incidents this year? That's not aberrant, that's a trend.
We know you all don't give a crap about kids, but you all say it's for the kids when you burden us with taxes to pay for union gangsters...
Are those the same union gangsters who put themselves between the kids and the shooter in Newtown? Like the one that saved her entire class at the cost of her own life by hiding the kids and then telling the killer that they were in the gym? Those union thugs? Those people who don't give a crap about the kids? You are a sad excuse for a human being.
Posted 5 months ago # -
boatgeek
offlineMemberPS, onder, I'm still waiting for you to enlighten us about which society has ever had universal gun ownership, like you said was necessary for us to keep our freedoms.
And what's with the sudden concern about whether Johnny gets his lunch? Last I checked, giving kids crazy stuff like lunch was a facebooking nanny state in your book. When did you get all socialist on us?
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember"It's an amazing surprise! Nothing like this has ever happened before! Who could have predicted! What? There were four other incidents this year? That's not aberrant, that's a trend." Adding "!!!!" for your benefit.
Plus 1 for cut and paste BS, but it doesn't help anyone.
Par.
Maybe you swing under next round?
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberbtw, chincy meffer, you still owe me a boat trip.
I did tell you exactly what society has the record for gun ownership, sorry it wasn't clear for you.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Edog
offlineMemberGuns in schools? This will be one hell of a fight. The NRA is a Bully and has never faced off against someone who will push back like the NEA.
I expect the NRA to have success in southern and rural districts state by state, but the NEA will win overall with a national campaign focused on grant money and public funding tied to Public Health and the negative effects of guns, and the increase in violence that accompanies their distribution.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember"Are those the same union gangsters who put themselves between the kids and the shooter in Newtown? Like the one that saved her entire class at the cost of her own life by hiding the kids and then telling the killer that they were in the gym?"
You know, maybe, you calling any teacher a gangster, let alone a dead teacher is about as despicable as anything I've read.
I called the union gangsters. Maybe if you realized the difference, even you'd be salvageable.
I won't hold my breath, but you just turned very green, it doesn't look good, fwiw.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Cate
offlineMemberNow I have mixed feelings about the NEA and strong feelings about the NRA but, as serious a subject as this is, I have to admit to there being some entertainment value in watching the NEA and the NRA duke it out. I think it would be to close to call but might lay a small wager on the NEA.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMemberEdog forgets who holds the purse.
Cate, I too am mixed about the NEA. I'm also very supportive of the NRA.
If the NEA is defunded, we win. I'll write another check, a very big check to the NRA.
I'll also be forced to write a check to the NEA. Maybe you get the difference?
Don't answer, knowing is obligatory in our environment.
Posted 5 months ago # -
boatgeek
offlineMemberI did tell you exactly what society has the record for gun ownership, sorry it wasn't clear for you.
Actually, you didn't as such. You told me I was wrong. You told us about your grocery store adventures and your practice of concealed carry. You told us it was a good thing you didn't consult the statisticians at Penn Medicine. You told us your fantasies about head-shooting dirtbags. You told us about union thugs. And you told us about math. You didn't ever tell us what society has universal gun ownership. So humor me and tell me again.
Last time you complained about the boat ride, I asked you to put out an email address I could use to contact you. Sadly, haven't seen that, so I can't fill in my end of the bargain.
And the union thugs bit? I especially like how you twist your own words. Apparently, the union is a bunch of thugs, but the individual teachers that make up the union? Pure gold. Except maybe the ones who don't teach. Not really clear there.
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember"Actually, you didn't as such."
I told you. Maybe you are mistaken, again?
I clearly say too much, I clearly care too much.
I'm not saying more.
meh, who am I to deprive others?
"You told us your fantasies about head-shooting dirtbags."
...I said at 50 paces, I recall.
Since you can't follow-up on your last bet, I won't make another with you.
(my email is public)
If any of you want to see a dirtbag bagged at fifty paces, via their head, feel free to contact me.
I'm not cheap.
Next year I'll be very, very expensive. ;-P
Posted 5 months ago # -
boatgeek
offlineMemberIf your email is public, please post it up. It's not in your profile, and I haven't seen it here. It's entirely possible it is. I just haven't seen it. Put up or shut up.
Maybe I was mistaken about the society with universal adult gun ownership. Maybe that item disappeared before I re-read the thread. Entirely possible. That's why I asked you to repeat. I'm not asking for a bet. I'm asking for a one-word name, possibly with a date. Put up or shut up.
Or is the problem that you don't like people calling you on your wild claims?
Posted 5 months ago # -
pennygirl
onlineMember"I called the union gangsters. Maybe if you realized the difference, even you'd be salvageable."
But who do you mean by the Union 1der? You know the definition of a Trade Union, right?
Posted 5 months ago # -
MidWest
offlineMemberHmmm...
Angrrrfullone must be *against* musicians getting union scale wages, then, being such a hater of unions.
Interesting.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Hello
offlineMemberIt is important to protect the rights of everyone. I don't think people should not have guns. It just seems that there should be a limitation on those rights. Gun proponents are so afraid of having their rights taken away that they automatically (pun intended) freak out when people start to question why their aren't more restrictions of the types of weapons people can buy.
Most people who are responsible gun owners understand there should be limitations. The fanatics are the ones who don't see logic in restrictions.
I would like to feel I have a fighting chance in a school or mall or any other public shooting - auto weapons lead to mass casualties and death - the indiscriminate bullet spray leaves each victim with many gun shots - does everybody know how many bullets were in some of those little children? No chance of survival and mutilated bodies. Now who the hell in their right mind doesn't see something wrong with that and wouldn't want to create some sort of mechanism to limit this type of carnage?
Posted 5 months ago # -
onederfullone
offlineMember"I would like to feel I have a fighting chance"
...which means less bullets? You must fight well. Regrettably most do not, and our population is being shamed into being disarmed rapidly. If you think a single bolt action rifle gives you a better chance at survival, you've never been shot by one.
See, the problem you suffer from is less guns/bullets make you safer.
Sheep dream of a world minus shears. Pigs dream of truffles.
Penny, and "arrrrgh", midfacebookingstupid, getting a wage doesn't disconnect you from reality. I get paid very well, maybe some union somewhere at sometime can take credit for that. Maybe it's just my bullet capacity. Either way, I feel pretty safe. tyvm.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Hello
offlineMemberGunderfullone - what you suffer from is the more guns/bullets make you safer.
You are the sheep. Following the NRA not realizing that as a consumer you are creating the monster. You make it easy for yourself to buy assault rifles - you make it easy for criminals to buy assault rifles.
YOU and people like you are the creators of the gun problems with your wide eyed and naiive belief that if you have lots of bullets and lots of guns then our society is safer. No your thinking makes our society unsafe. The thinking promotes this false sense of security and lets you sleep at night.
What happened was horrible and I am so sad for the families and the loss. Your reaction is to support the action to bring more guns in this world? What a sheeple you are. Yes, lets bring our children up around highly armed men and women who show them of a future where people can not be free and safe without the ability to kill at the twitch of a finger.
Let's show our kids that fear is the only human instinct worth promoting and let's teach them that it is normal to live in a paranoid world where men's fears create more weapons and then the fear of those weapons create more weapons and so on. If you don't get there is a problem then you don't get it and you are less worth speaking to now than I have ever in the past thought you were.
You can tell of the people who respond to this subject, those who are ruled by fear. This fear grows and grows in to bigger guns, faster action, more bullets that can penetrate armor deeper and deeper, more, more, more. You don't even get what is wrong with your scenario - take anyone's determination to stop gun restrictions to the fullest end of the thought and what you end up with is a dystopic world where armed guards walk around in full body armor in front of schools, malls, grocery stores etc... take your thinking to its full conclusion and you have the very society you are afraid of. One that restricts your movements and takes away your right to liberty.
You are the sheep - the NRA loves your hind end.
Posted 5 months ago # -
Cate
offlineMemberVery well said Hello. Thank you.
Edited to add: The day of the Columbine Shooting there was an armed security officer on the campus. And this is the best editorial I have read this week on the subjects of guns. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/scocca/2012/12/nra_press_conference_the_lesson_of_newtown_when_gun_nuts_write_gun_laws.html
Posted 5 months ago # -
racerX
offlineMemberWhere is the common sense, people? Please do not feed the trolls.
Posted 5 months ago # -
MidWest
offlineMemberABC News - Proof that conceal carry doesn't necessarily help, or work out that well:
Part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s
Part two:
Posted 5 months ago # -
phoo
offlineMemberA lengthy but very worth it read:
http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/Posted 5 months ago #
Reply »
You must log in to post.