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Water problems

(47 posts)
  1. Mittens

    Mittens

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    When it rains 1 - 2 inches in a day we get a stream of water in our basement. I've had two companies come out and give bids on fixing the problem. One is an exterior fix, dig around the foundation and the other is a interior perimeter drain. The exterior drain is three times the cost of the interior one. Anyone have problems with interior perimeter drains? I just don't want it to mess up my foundation.

    We've tried fixing the down spouts but that hasn't worked. We did find out from the guy with the exterior solution that our drains to the sewer system don't seem to work. Should we try getting those fixed first? Both companies didn't seem interested in trying to figure out why the water is getting in.

    Any suggestions on who to call about fixing the drains for the down spouts?

    Thanks.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  2. stopgo

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    go to rain wise...if you live in ballard and your drains are not functioning, you can put in a system for virtually no cost that will drain into a garden or the sewer.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  3. Mondoman

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    email Ask This Old House. Can't hurt!
    When you said you tried "fixing" the downspout, have you tried attaching hoses/pipes so the water gets dumped 15' or 20' away from the house? .

    Posted 4 months ago #
  4. ballardo

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    Have you checked your gutters? Could be that they're clogged and overflowing instead of draining to the downspouts. The exterior trenching solution is going to be far better in the long run (do you really want water inside your basement even if it's going to a drain? Or maybe I'm not understanding the interior system.)

    City of Kirkland has a good info sheet on this. Scroll down and you'll see a nice graphic: http://www.kirklandwa.gov/Page666.aspx

    Posted 4 months ago #
  5. Corvus

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    Mittens, I don't understand the "drains to the sewer don't seem to work". Most companies these days have a scope (they have really gone down in price) and will use them as part of the diagnostic and bid phase free of charge.

    The company I work for frequently contracts out the foundation water proofing and their preference is for the interior system. It is cheaper because you do not have to dig a trench outside the entire perimeter which for some Seattle homes can be impossible. I have had a chance to look at several of the interior jobs and I am impressed enough with the finish product to consider it on my home. But every home is different and there may be reasons to chose one or the other which I am not privy to.

    I will get the name of the company we use and post it here. If you like, I can also email it to you.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  6. crownhiller

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    Hmmm... I think if it were me, I'd want to know why the drains to sewer don't work first - that might be a much simpler/cheaper solution. And yes, it could be a gutter cleaning issue too - we had that problem with one that caused a leak over a sun porch. Rain barrels have also helped us contain some of the extra run-off - I use it in summer to water plants. Stopgo is on the same track with Rainwise. But I would still investigate the sewer drain issues first.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  7. Mittens

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    The gutters are working. The down spouts have extensions on them so the water comes out about 10 feet from the house.

    Some of the down spouts use to go into pipes that drained into the sewer. One guy put dye in the drains and a running hose into it. He opened the sewer cover to check for the dye. We didn't see it. It's not conclusive though. The sewer water is down about 6 feet, so it's hard to get a good look. He didn't offer a camera while doing his inspection for an estimate. His estimate was to go ahead and dig around the outside, install footer drains and also under ground down spout drains. The cost would be 1/4 the value of the house!

    I think the next step is to get somebody with a tiny camera to examine the insides of those pipes.

    I want to look into Rainwise. My husband thinks it's not the way to solve the problem because He assumes they want to keep the water on the property and not let it get to the sewer. We have a tiny lot (old house) so our goal it to get the water away.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  8. great idea

    great idea

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    get the name of Corvus's waterproofing sub and let them put an interior french drain in w/ a sump pump. I would think you could get this work done for under $5k.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  9. Mittens

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    It's hard to keep the gutters free of pigeon gunk. The neighbor allows pigeons to nest in his gable! The pigeons love to roost on my house and watch their nest. He won't do anything with the house because he stopped paying the mortgage several years ago. He thinks the bank won't kick him out if it's a dump. So far so good for him. With such a hot housing market you'd think the bank would want to foreclose.

    BTW, I saw the pigeons eating at a bird feeder two doors down! I'd love it if the snowy owls would come over here for pigeon lunch/dinner.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  10. Corvus

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    Mittens, while it is important to divert as much water away from your home as possible, there is a point where the water table will rise in the ground itself so that hydrostatic pressure will force the ground water up through your basement slab whether it is through cracks or through the seam where the slab meets the foundations. This is actually a fairly common phenomenon in Seattle. The purpose of the foundation drain system, whether inside the foundation walls or outside, is to capture that water and divert it. Modern code requires that foundations drain systems be tied into the storm water run off which separate from the sewer system. However, if older home already have a tie in to the sewer they are allowed to use that tie in and connect a new drain system to it. So your husband is correct in that programs like RainWise are attempting to retain as much water as possible on the property and what can't be contained is hopefully diverted to the storm water system.

    I have a hundred year old house that also flood and my basement slab actually has grooves that were designed into the original pour which channel the water towards a floor drain the is tied into the sewer. When the time comes, I will definitely be using that to my advantage.

    One advantage of the internal system, BTW, is that the plastic sheet which is nailed the inside of your foundation wall is also tied into the drain system so if by chance your gutters do fail and the water comes through the wall instead of up through the floor, that water is still captured and diverted.

    Hope this helps.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  11. Alonzo Neighbor

    Alonzo Neighbor

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    We have much the same scenario - 100 yr old house, grooves in cement floor, trails of water. We have two sump pumps which do the job until we have a several days long deluge. Then, all bets are off. Corvus - we are interested in the name of the company who does the interior drain system.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  12. Corvus

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    My apologies for the poorly edited post above. I am not feeling well today. I will get the name of the company tomorrow since they just installed the system on the basement we are currently framing and finishing.

    Either of you can also contact me at cdpenne at the warmer than warm mail place.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  13. saffythepook

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    We installed an internal drain and sump/pump in our first house and never had a problem again. The only issue with that installation is that we needed an electric sump pump to get the water into the sewer system since there was no way to use gravity. That meant that in theory if we ever had a big enough storm to both drive water into the basement and also to kill the power, the basement could still flood. It never happened but since we did this as a prelude to remodeling the basement and couldn't risk any flood, we also installed an auxiliary water-powered pump. It used water pressure from the house mains to siphon the water out of the sump without electricity. We would've had to have lost both electricity and water pressure to flood at that point and our assumption was that in case of any event serious enough to do that, a flooded basement would be the least of our worries.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  14. great idea

    great idea

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    interesting about the water-powered pump, saffy. I'm not familiar with those--are they expensive?

    I lived in another state and had a sump pump that relied on electricity. when our power went out for several days, I baled water from the sump with a bucket and threw it down the wash-tub. like a thousand times!

    Posted 4 months ago #
  15. Corvus

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    Perma-dry Waterproofing Inc. 800-584-9128. Local company.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  16. Mittens

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    Thanks so much Corvus. Perma-dry gave us a quote for the internal drain system. I'm glad to have more feedback on them.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  17. gooner

    gooner

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    We used these guys to put in an internal drain and sump pump

    http://www.aqueousbasementsystems.com/

    They were good (not great) as the external piping (after it pumps the water) was not put in properly and it had a slight incline before draining into a downspout. I was able to notice this about 6 months later and fix it myself, but not something I would expect from a $4k job.

    I will say however, that the internal work (drains and pump) were done really well and it works like a charm and I haven't had an ounce of water in my basement since.

    So I suppose I am an advocate for the internal fix, but not necessarily recommending these guys.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  18. lakreitz

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    Mittens, we used Perma Dry Waterproofing in late 1999. They did what they said they would do when they said they would do it. Thirteen years later we've had no issues. Due to the slope of our yard, the amount of water on our lot and the soil (ie, hard pan) around our house, internal was the only option. If we'd gone with an external solution, I think they'd still be working on it.

    None of the downspouts were connected to sewer lines. Lines just went a few feet along the house and stopped. I can't imagine that this was code when the house was built in 1977, but that's what we had. We discovered the problem in the summer. We dug new lines and connected them to our sump pump and we thought the problem was solved. In the fall when the rains started up, the leaking started in our newly remodeled downstairs. When we tore out the new flooring, we discovered numerous leaks in the foundation. We measured 10 gal/hour. This was not a leak, it was a spring.

    Just installing the dry basement system might not fix completely fix your problems. Last summer I had Bob Coates come out to look at a problem I had at another property. The guy had a hand-held device with the sewer map of our property which showed that half of the downspouts were not connected to the city sewer. They just drained into the yard...and then to the neighbor's yard who rightfully complained. Then he ran a camera into the connected lines to make sure they were not clogged with roots, etc.

    Water wins.

    Posted 4 months ago #
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    shelley

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    Hmmm. Hearing folk talk about gutters connected to the sanitary sewer gives me the shivers. Isn't that what the CSO problem is partially about? Is that legal? Or maybe it is if they always have. Maybe things are different in combined sewer areas than they are up here in hillbilly land.

    The people before us used perma dry to do our inside the perimeter drain and it works perfectly. Zero problems. The gutters drain out about 8 feet from the house into large rock piles. They used to drain into a concrete pipe which ended about 4 feet from the house. Someday, I will get a cistern to collect the gutter water for watering the garden to reduce the water bill.

    Posted 4 months ago #
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    chicone

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    I went with the exterior fix. House is 90 years old and I have the grooves in my floor also. . Yes it was expensive but the whole side of the house was fixed to below the foundation and I have no sump pumps to worry about. My flooding was bad. I only got the one bad side done which was mostly enough but I will probably have the back and other side done at some point in the future. In my mind the exterior fix is far superior but its also the kind of thing that you have to dump a lot of money into that I don't know if it adds much resale value. If you plan to stick around for a long time I believe in it. Allied Waterproofing did the work.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  21. Corvus

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    Shelly, what is the "CSO" problem. Is that 'county sewer overflow' or something?

    I wouldn't recommend connecting the downspouts directly to the sewer. Only what would manage to seep through the ground and into your basement. That is why city inspectors are more forgiving about foundation drains being connected to the sewer system - the water has already gone through 3 feet of ground. They would never allow the rain gutters and downspouts to flow directly to the sewer.

    However, when I walk around I can see all sorts of ways that people do essentially that, or as mentioned above, dump it into the neighbors yard.

    I have plenty of ground space to soak up water from the gutters and it takes a hard 2 days of rain to cause flooding in my basement and that is usually only about 5 - 10 gallons or less depending. I doubt that much going into the sewer is a problem.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  22. Mondoman

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    Yep, CSO just stands for "Combined Sewer Overflow", reflecting that the older systems, such as most of Ballard, have only one combined sewer system that handles both stormwater runoff and the sanitary sewer.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  23. Mittens

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    Chicone thanks for the recommendation. I think the folks we talked with about an exterior solution, Bodine Construction, are on the high side.

    I'd prefer to retro fit on the outside but it's so costly.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  24. enatai70

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    This has been talked about in another thread from way back:

    http://www.myballard.com/forum/topic.php?id=1726

    I posted on that thread and still would recommend Waterproofing Plus, a family business, Rod Matheson is the owner. He has been in business a long time. 206-784-2299

    I have a crappy 92 year old typical seattle "charmer" and I think just about every house on my block has basement flooding in the rain. The former owner put in the exterior drains which didn't do the trick, I put in the interior drains (was about $3K) and NO MORE FLOODING. Hooray. I did not need a sump.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  25. Alonzo Neighbor

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    Thanks, everyone, for the referrals. Corvus, I have a favorite crow in my back yard that looks much like your avatar. We call him Bighead. He's kind of a doofus, in a cool crow way.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  26. Corvus

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    Biophile says that it must be a juvenile crow. I just like the picture.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  27. onederfullone

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    "Anyone have problems with interior perimeter drains? I just don't want it to mess up my foundation."

    Yes, I've got a problem with that option, extending to the idiot that offered it.

    Exterior should be your focus.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  28. Corvus

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    Onedy, you are the clear idiot here because you obviously don't know crap about it. In order to install a french drain you have to dig down to foundation level. Whether it is inside or not makes absolutely no difference. The only danger to the foundation would be in undercutting it but that isn't very likely in either case. My preference would be for exterior but you need to get a clue.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  29. onederfullone

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    "Onedy, you are the clear idiot here because you obviously don't know crap about it. In order to install a french drain you have to dig down to foundation level."

    Outside moron.

    Unless you love to undermine your investment, every time it rains, by giving erosion a free pass inside, via under your foundation.

    Clearly you do.

    Maybe you should check up on facebook, your friends are all waiting.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  30. Corvus

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    The water is in the ground already and it isn't eroding anything because it isn't flowing. Your foundation and slab work together more like a boat's hull and when the hydrostatic pressure would force the groundwater into your basement, the french drain relieves that pressure and collects the water and directs the water. It doesn't matter whether that drain is inside or out it functions the same way. The only thing you know about basements is that you rent one. You don't know shit and you are simply talking out your ass. My Facebook friends can wait - you are much more amusing at the moment.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  31. onederfullone

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    it flows inside if you give it an outlet, idiot.

    MyBallard is a good point, fwiw. Don't you miss your old basement?

    Posted 4 months ago #
  32. Corvus

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    No it doesn't flow inside. The drain is buried under the slab next to the foundation wall. Are you always so obtuse? The only the place the water flows is into the drain. The more you comment the more clear it is how little you know. Try again.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  33. onederfullone

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    "The drain is buried under the slab next to the foundation wall."

    And it should be? Because you know better?

    Ever installed sumps outside?

    wow, a few dozen folks here are laughing, and say you should stfu.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  34. Corvus

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    The drain is buried under the slab when the foundation drain is installed on the inside, after the fact, on an old house where exterior installation is not feasible. If you actually researched it instead of talking out your ass you would realize how embarrassed you and your few dozen imaginary friends should be right now.

    Sumps are only require if you are below sewer elevation and yes I have installed many sump pumps in outside locations. Pretty much any time water needs to be move up in elevation.

    Try again Onedy.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  35. great idea

    great idea

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    "wow, a few dozen folks here are laughing, and say you should stfu. "

    I'm laughing, but not at Corvus.

    exterior drains are great for new construction. however, after the fact, digging a 6-8' deep trench around the outside perimeter of your house is prolly 5x more expensive on average than the interior system.

    the end result is the same.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  36. MidWest

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    "digging a 6-8' deep trench around the outside perimeter of your house..."

    Sometimes this isn't an option. Some Seattle houses have that ridiculously tiny setback between houses that precludes any outdoor solutions being feasible, forcing the homeowner to consider other ways of dealing with the problem.

    Each situation is different... Saw a hydrostatic issue that was truly mind boggling, and was a complete f*cking nightmare for the homeowners no matter what they did. Amityville horror of basement water problems. Made for a NASTY mold problem.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  37. onederfullone

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    "exterior drains are great for new construction."

    Maybe its 'new' for a reason?

    "the end result is the same."

    Now I'm laughing, a serious issue, and we've got dumb and even stupid telling folks what it is.

    Any of you running for political office? It would completely make sense.

    "the end result is the same."

    Clearly.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  38. great idea

    great idea

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    yes, it's called a dry basement.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  39. Corvus

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    Here is a little primer for the blow hard (normal people might find it interesting too)...

    http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/green-basics/foundation-drains-0

    Posted 4 months ago #
  40. MidWest

    MidWest

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    Good link-thanks. Very informative and instructive.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  41. Mittens

    Mittens

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    Interesting article Corvus. One guy I talked to thought that my house might not have had a footing drain put in when it was built in 1946.

    I have come across some nightmare stories about interior drains, most notably from Roger Faris formerly from the Well Home Program. He wrote an article about a neighbor that had an interior drain system put it. Half way through the job "the soil under the foundation turned into a soupy, muddy mixture. As that soil squished into the adjacent ditch, twenty feet of foundation wall dropped a foot in elevation and was no longer supporting the house. ... Fifteen thousand additional dollars were quickly expended."

    I asked the Perma-dry guy if they ever had foundation problems while they were digging. He said once. I got the impression that they couldn't do anything for the homeowner when that type of problem appeared.

    This is why I want to be sure it's the right solution for my house before I go with it. The two guys I talked to seemed keen on a solution without knowing much about my particular problem.

    Is there a chance that an older house might not have a proper footing? Perhaps the slab is helping to support the foundation. The interior drainage guys were not offering to find this out before they start work.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  42. great idea

    great idea

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    a house built in 1946 would definitely have a foundation, unless it was built under-the-radar by some total hack.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  43. onederfullone

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    "One guy I talked to thought that my house might not have had a footing drain put in when it was built in 1946."

    Probably correct, and I'd be surprised if there is a footing at all.

    The easiest way, and the cheapest, is surface water management around your home.

    Make certain your gutters are all working, make certain all down spouts are directed away from your structure, use tight-line if needed. If anything slopes toward your structure, driveway, sidewalk, patio, etc., curb it off, redirect it.

    Your solution is exterior, I guarantee it. If you attempt to pay someone to excavate your interior, you will pay dearly, and will be dealing with further problems as surface water continues to undermine your investment.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  44. Mittens

    Mittens

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    Here's an interesting article from State Farm.

    http://learningcenter.statefarm.com/residence/maintenance/wet-basement-problems/

    I wonder if the city drains in my area are causing part of the problem.

    "If you have an older house within town and the house has a basement with no sump pump, it is likely the perimeter foundation drain system connects directly into the city storm sewer system. If the level of the basement is below the street level, there is the potential of storm water backing up in the city storm sewer system and being pushed into the perimeter foundation drain system. This can saturate the soils around the house at the basement level with storm water under hydrostatic pressure, causing water to leak in."

    Posted 4 months ago #
  45. great idea

    great idea

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    I doubt a house built in 1946 has any sort of foundation drain on the outside. they didn't think about water back then for some reason.

    however the house would likely have a foundation. I'd be willing to wager w/ oneder, say 1 month away from this site when mittens finds out?

    I'd be happy to come by tomorrow and dig up the truth in honour of George Washington.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  46. Corvus

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    Hello Mittens,

    Your Statefarm link is very informative and spells out very clearly the problems you may face and the possible solutions.

    Germain to your original question is this paragraph which spells out the two, exterior vs. interior, and gives at least some preference for the internal (below slab)...

    There are two basic types of drain systems for wet basements. One is a perimeter above-slab gutter system installed at the base of the exterior foundation walls on top of the floor slab. It doubles as a base material for the wall. The other type of drainage system is a below slab perimeter drainage system. The below slab system requires the partial removal of the concrete floor slab and installation of drainage pipe, making it more expensive than the base gutter system.

    It is believed that an under-floor drainage system is better because the under-floor drains are believed to relieve the hydrostatic pressure before the water reaches the bottom of the floor slab.

    I think the merits of one or the other are going to change depending on the house and it's particular circumstances. I think it is possible that the city system can back up and in this case it may be helpful to consult your neighbors. For instance, my basement floods but neither of my neighbors basements do. But if the groundwater is rising for me, then it will for them too. Another consideration is what type of building and how much below ground concrete does it have (possible water dam) down hill from you.

    My point is, there are many considerations. A good company will garuntee and warrantee their work. I have seen Permadry come out and do addtional work for free becuase their proposed system did not work. You are on he right track and educating yourself and asking hard questions will ensure that your eventual provider will satisfy your demands. By the way, I am not employed by or shilling for Permadry. I only mention them becuase I have seen their work and I am sure there are others who will do just as good a job.

    Finally, it is entirely possible to undermine a foundation when exposing one side of it or the other to install a drain system after the fact. The excavator will need to be carefull not the disurb the soil directly under the foundation / footer. However, there are likely to be voids and soft pathches develop under any old house as they did not pay as much attention to soil composition and compaction when most of these old homes were built and so that may not be the excavators fault and may in fact have been a problem before the drain system work exposed it or shined a light on it.

    At some point, you may want to consider hiring a contractor to be your intercessor. The is what a contractor is supposed to do. The times that Permadry returned to do addtional work could very well have been because they knew that if they didn't they would not get our referrals any longer. I really can't say as I have not been with this contractor long enough to know the details of the situation.

    Hope that helps.

    Posted 4 months ago #
  47. Corvus

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    Of course the house has a foundtion. Even post and pier houses have foundations - the block or poured concrete pier the post sits on. But it may not have a footer below the foundation / stem wall. The footer is a separate pour and came into wide spread use later.

    Posted 4 months ago #

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