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vegan or vegitarian pet food - vegan biker?

(70 posts)

Started 3 months ago by lifeisamazing
Latest reply from Jules

lifeisamazing

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What kind do you use for your boy? I'm going to give it a shot. I don't know about the cats but I'd like to give it a try with the dog.

Posted 3 months ago #
great idea

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I'm sure VB will say otherwise, but my dog LOVES eggs (nuked for 30 seconds on micro) which I use as a special reward and wouldn't give up.

there's lots of great options out there so you could probably do fine pure vegan.

Posted 3 months ago #
VeganBiker

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lifeisamazing - hi there, this is what I have been feeding my dog for many years:
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/product-category.aspx?ProductCategoryID=37&category=Dog+Dry+Vegetarian

He has thrived on it and is now 12 years old and still acts like a puppy.
I recommend it and will feed it to any dogs that happen to choose to live with me in the future.
And feeding cats a vegan diet is a whole different thing, more complicated as they are carnivores unlike dogs who are omnivores. The main thing with cats is that you have to feed them taurine in some form and there is a non animal form that you can add as a supplemental to vegetarian cat food but you have to be careful and cats are generally more finicky about food than dogs are.
Good luck and let me know how it works out for you.

Posted 3 months ago #
lifeisamazing

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Thanks GI - I too feed my dog eggs. I don't have a problem with eggs and she gets groovy humanely gotten raw eggs and oatmeal for breakfast.

Thanks VB - I've been making food for my cats and dog from the only source of turkey that I consider "humanely" raised and slaughtered and believe me I've made hours of phone calls and asked a lot of questions that people weren't thrilled about answering. Anyway, that source is going to run out and frankly I'm sick of the time it takes to make enough for all the animals and dealing with raw meat.

You are the only source I've known that can actually tell me that they've raised a dog vegan or vegetarian and that it's been successful so I'm going to give it a shot (Oh the joy of just opening a can of food!)

The cats are a different story but I'm going to do some more research. I know about the Taurine but I didn't know about a non-animal form! That is news to me so thank you.

I love my cats but frankly that whole picky thing - I tend to go with the "You can hold out as long as you want - I'm eating, you aren't, I can outlast you" It's always worked. Also, My cats are used to having a varied diet so switching is not hard on them physically.
I have one that will eat anything. She particularly likes small electronics and the plastic lenses in my glasses. I'm pretty sure that that is all vegan :)

Thanks for all the info guys, I'll let you know how it goes.

Posted 3 months ago #
Jules

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Trying to make a cat a vegetarian amounts to animal abuse. Cats are carnivores, period. IF you want a vegan pet, get a hamster or a rabbit.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Jules - I respectfully disagree with your statement "Trying to make a cat a vegetarian amounts to animal abuse." Although our cats are not vegan, there are a number of vegetarian and vegan cat foods available that have been successfully fed to cats for many years. It is not cruel, and often the cats are healthier than cats that eat mass produced food from slaughtered animal by-products.
I will agree, given that most cats are often picky eaters, that if a cat will not eat a vegetarian/vegan diet, then one should not force them.
We just made a choice to feed them good quality cat food and even then they are still picky!

Posted 2 months ago #
onederfullone

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"Jules - I respectfully disagree with your statement "Trying to make a cat a vegetarian amounts to animal abuse." Although our cats are not vegan, there are a number of vegetarian and vegan cat foods available that have been successfully fed to cats for many years. It is not cruel,"

color me fed up with absolute bullcrap.

Feed your cats that crap before you market it to someone else.

"My cat lived for x number of years on stupid" would work for me. fwiw.

I'm going to polish off a markup because I love my Waldo.

Cats require enzymes and moisture from fresh meat.

end rant.

Posted 2 months ago #
Boris

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I feed python vegetables all last week. It made big mess and confound snake. She surprise and constrict eggplant with gusto. She later get depressed. Snake not know how to eat vegetable mush.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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onederfullone - "end rant" would be a good one for you! Because where did you get this from "Cats require enzymes and moisture from fresh meat."?
FYI I am not trying to "market" anything to anyone, just trying to have a civilized discussion about a topic that I did not start.
To me your "rants" come across as angry on a forum however I will admit that if we were talking face to face I might find that you have a sense of humor, and this is all a bit laugh to you.

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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Cats require the bone and protein in meat. Ask your vet what THEY think about enforcing your lifestyle choices on an animal who has no say in the matter. My cat lived to be 21...and I fed her high quality, RAW food, available frozen down at All The Best Pets on Market St. I did not feed her any kind of "kibble", even the expensive kind from the vet. I did not feed her any kind of "animal byproduct." In this house, if I won't eat it, my pets won't eat it either.

I will restate the obvious: Cats Are Carnivores. They are not omnivores, they are not vegetarians, they are not vegans. Carnivores. If your lifestyle does not permit you to feed and house a carnivore under your roof, perhaps you should have a rabbit. I do, and she is a herbivore who enjoys the best organic produce and hay available. Forcing your cat to become a vegan is in fact, animal abuse. Ask the vets at Cat's Exclusive.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Jules - as you started this theme, I will say that "animal abuse" is what is done to the millions of beautiful animals that are slaughtered daily to feed our "pets". That is why I suggest a vegan diet for dogs and cats. I do not agree with breeding or creating/making any animals "pets". I do not condone the use of animals for human consumption or profit in any form. And you can say what ever you want, but I will not agree with killing animals.
Cats, dogs and most "pets" are animals that have been created by selective breeding by humans for selfish needs. Eventually if we continue the way we are going there will be no really wild animals left in this world, just domesticated animals and animals that survive in a human environment i.e. rats, raccoons, squirrels etc. And animals in zoos, game reserves, farm animals and pets!

Posted 2 months ago #
pixlpete

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I see cats eating vegetation all the time (grass), they usually puke right after that though.

Posted 2 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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I wonder if this includes vegan & vegetarian pet food product. In all seriousness what a great idea especially when people are forced to choose and get rid of a pet during bad times.

http://now.msn.com/pet-food-stamps-pays-for-owners-to-buy-pet-food

Until now. Marc Okon has launched Pet Food Stamps, a New York-based nonprofit that will give qualifying pet owners throughout the U.S. (who must be receiving government assistance for themselves) funds to buy food for their animals from the website PetFoodDirect. In the program’s first two weeks, Okon says he has already fielded more than 12,000 applications.

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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"I love my cats but frankly that whole picky thing - I tend to go with the "You can hold out as long as you want - I'm eating, you aren't, I can outlast you" It's always worked. Also, My cats are used to having a varied diet so switching is not hard on them physically."

So, presumably you are a vegetarian because....you care about animals? So what I don't understand is the attitude that basically "I'll starve my animals until they eat what I want to out of desperation and hunger." serves this philosophy.

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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I hate to say it but I agree (gulp) with Jules. Your cat is not an extension of your lifestyle. Cats are carnivores. Unless someone can direct me to a legitimate site that proves that a vegetarian diet is perfectly ok for a cat or dog, I will disagree.

Posted 2 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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This is a site I go to for natural remedies and health questions. I hate to say it but even the majority on the tree hugger site say no for pets;)

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=74338

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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Thanks Buff...

I think this post says it all:

"Ditto, I have been a vegetarian for over 20 years, and recently started eating vegan but I have never put any of my animals on that diet. It is one of the compromises we have to make in the world we live in today, IMO. If you are going to keep animals, you have to respect that they need a different diet from you. "

Posted 2 months ago #
onederfullone

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"I will say that "animal abuse" is what is done to the millions of beautiful animals that are slaughtered daily to feed our "pets". That is why I suggest a vegan diet for dogs and cats. I do not agree with breeding or creating/making any animals "pets".

From someone with at least one dog and one cat you'll freely admit to.

Your shtick flies well around here.

I rescued my cat, plan to rescue a dog.

btw, Jules didn't start this theme, but what do I know, I'm just a drywaller, lmfao.

You started talking nonsense about a cat diet. ffs.

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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Actually that's a good point. Vegan, you know I love you my fellow Welshie, but what is your dog if he isn't a 'pet'?

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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"That is why I suggest a vegan diet for dogs and cats. " You are missing the point. Cats CANNOT LIVE ON A VEGAN DIET. IF you do not want to support them eating other animals, then DO NOT HAVE CATS. They are CARNIVORES.

Feeding CATS a vegan diet is ANIMAL ABUSE. Ask any vet. There is NO room for argument.

Posted 2 months ago #
Ernie

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Stop yelling. Sheesh.

Posted 2 months ago #
iPlod

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I hate to cast stones but it's obvious VeganBiker is a specist.

He thinks his total disregard of the wholesale abuse of our nurturing vegetable cousins by the great majority of humanity is somehow deflected by his finger wagging at meat eaters.

Well VB, we aren't falling for it and worldwide, plants are screaming, VB. Screaming.

My god, keep it up and what's next? Fenced compounds where plants are forcibly herded into rows and targeted for eventual extermination? HAH! You may think it's crazy talk but there is verified proof that this is actually happening now!

What VB, makes you better than the plants who have supported you?

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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BTW, my cat was a rescue. My rabbit is a rescue, and is not my "pet". In fact, I am her "staff" as the vast majority of my living space and the majority of my food budget goes to make sure she is living like the Dutchie Diva that she is.

Animals in our care deserve the BEST care that we can provide for THEIR needs, not our needs or our philosophy or our lifestyles. IF not, then it is unfair and unkind to keep them as your companions.

Posted 2 months ago #
NW whippet

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I haven't done a lot of research on taurine, but what I do know is that it is processed from the animal intestine, and I don't think it occurs naturally in plants. So in fact there is no fully vegan diet for a dog or a cat, and you would likely be consigning your cat to a life of blindness without a high taurine diet, since low or no taurine damages the retina in the cats eyes. It also affects brain function. I have to agree that trying to put a cat on a vegan diet would not only be "abusive" but you really would not find a truly vegan pet food anyway. Even VeganBikers dog food is vegetarian and not vegan, which means the taurine in it most likely came from processed animal digestive tracts.

Posted 2 months ago #
MidWest

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VeganBiker=plant murderer.

Posted 2 months ago #
Cate

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I offered my kitties some sauteed Tofu and Spinach , they took a bite and spit it out. When they saw a black bean patty on the counter one of them went over and scratched on it, like she was burying it in kitty litter, like they do with their...well you know. Whatever the ethics of feeding your pets, in the end they're the ones who chose whether to swallow or not.

Posted 2 months ago #
NW whippet

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Is there any other high protein food? I mean.. I can't see a cat eating a nut.

Posted 2 months ago #
lifeisamazing

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Wow! this has been interesting to read.
Lets see where do i start?
Thank you so much VB for your info especially when it got you blasted.

Regarding my flippant "I'm eating so I can hold out longer than you" Clearly the written word can sound very different than the spoken.
I realize you don't know me but the way I take care of my animals is well, sort of epic among those that do know me. My cats don't starve (you should see them! healthy and shiny fur except for the one that is costing a fortune right now trying to get to the bottom of a skin allergy that, unfortunately, has nothing to do with food.) It is true that I don't cater to their pickyness. If I did I'd be feeding them each something different.

Jules- I respect your upset regarding my cats. I would feel the same way if I thought someone was abusing animals. The thing that confuses me is that you don't seem to be concerned regarding the animals that supply the meat for the pet food that you want me to use. You haven't mentioned anything about making sure that that meat supply doesn't involve animals being abused.

That concern is what has caused me to do as much research as I have done. Untold hours actually. I don't want ANY animal abuse. Not for "pets" nor for farm animals. I have my own standard for what is humane regarding the raising and slaughtering of farm animals and it doesn't get covered by the bs "humanely raised" stamps on the packages. The only way to find out is to make a lot of phone calls. I've only found one company that meets it. That is where I was getting the raw meat for my cats and dog. Mixed with pureed vegetables and supplements and pumpkin for their digestion and eggs to make sure that there was enough actual meat in balance with the ground in bone. (my dog can't digest bones unless they're ground - some can, mine can't)

I am looking for another source for their food which prompted the original question to VB.

I don't have a problem giving my dog eggs and eggs are very high in taurine so I add eggs to the vegan (It is actually vegan NW Whippit) dog food. I believe VB when he says his 12 year old dog is doing well but I feel more comfortable with my dog having meat of some sort so I add eggs. It gives me what I was looking for- an easy to do 'humane' food for my dog.

Regarding the cats. Their primary diet had been raw bone in turkey with eggs, veggies and supplements just like the dog. I have replaced the meat and veggies with more eggs and some of the vegan dog food. Basically the same thing I've done for the dog. The eggs take care of the taurine which they have to have (I haven't looked into the man made taurine since I'm doing the eggs) and the dog food has the veggies and, bonus!, they like it.

Well they like it as much as they ever do. What they really want is friskies but that ain't happening.

Posted 2 months ago #
lifeisamazing

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NW - I only know one cat that will eat a nut. My girl Bug. She eats anything including Styrofoam and electronics. She ate my webcam. I'm not kidding. I walked in my bedroom and she was on the bed next to my laptop with electrical cords hanging out of her mouth and webcam pieces by her feet.
It never ceases to amaze me that she is still alive.
And I didn't feed her that regardless of the veganness of it

Posted 2 months ago #
gracie

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LIA - it is amazing that cat is still alive. I had a cat that was obsessed with styrofoam. Anything that came in the mail packed in that he would come running and try to chew on it. Figured not good for him (duh!) and had to take out of house immediately. But electronics - no, never went down that road. He also liked to "mark" anything new that came into the house - a chair, a table but thankfully nothing came out when he "marked". He just had to establish it was his house and not mine!
My present cat Pickles is obsessed with anything carb. She would eat rice, bread, pastries, pies all day long if I had them in my house. (on a stupid low carb plan right now). She also loves veggies, salmon. When I would go to Paseos and get the Carribean Bowl she was literally right up at my face trying to get some. (gave her a little of the chicken)

Posted 2 months ago #
gracie

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LIA - it is amazing that cat is still alive. I had a cat that was obsessed with styrofoam. Anything that came in the mail packed in that he would come running and try to chew on it. Figured not good for him (duh!) and had to take out of house immediately. But electronics - no, never went down that road. He also liked to "mark" anything new that came into the house - a chair, a table but thankfully nothing came out when he "marked". He just had to establish it was his house and not mine!
My present cat Pickles is obsessed with anything carb. She would eat rice, bread, pastries, pies all day long if I had them in my house. (on a stupid low carb plan right now). She also loves veggies, salmon. When I would go to Paseos and get the Carribean Bowl she was literally right up at my face trying to get some. (gave her a little of the chicken)

Posted 2 months ago #
MidWest

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lia:

Guessing your cat that eats weird things is an indoor cat?

Seen indoor cats sniff/lick paint on walls that dried long ago, lick glue from any adhesive available (like envelopes), and eat the strangest stuff. Bizarre.

Cats are weird. But furry, cute, cuddly, and fun.

(Bet Boris weighs in on how they're delicious... Talk about *weird*)

Posted 2 months ago #
oldguybc

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VB, kinda really like sardines, does that make me a bad guy?

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Well my first reaction upon reading some of these posts was "wow!" Or some similar words. :)
lifeisamazing - you are welcome and I can see that you have looked into this issue and have tried many approaches to finding the type of food you feel comfortable feeding your animals. FWIW, and I am sure you already knew this, I am just sharing my personal experiences and thoughts and not trying to convert anyone on this forum. Thanks for being a compassionate person and thinking about the bigger picture when it comes to the animals of this world.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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Jules - I have no desire to get into a argument with you, I don't know you and you don't know me. All I can say is that from my perspective I know there are cats alive and thriving on a vegan diet. There is no more to say as far as I can see.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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NW whippet - If you look at the Natural Balance web page you will see that the "Vegetarian" kibble is listed as "Vegan Formula". The main reason for this is that the kibble, although it is vegan, is processed on machinery that also processes non-vegan products, therefore the kibble can not be sold as "pure" vegan kibble, however if you look at the description they state "We do not use any animal or dairy products in this formula." That means it is vegan.

Posted 2 months ago #
VeganBiker

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oldguybc - there is no "bad or good" and I thought we were talking about cats and dogs. :)
You can eat what ever you want. Did JW eat a lot of sardines?

Posted 2 months ago #
lifeisamazing

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Yes VB I did know that.
I've always liked that you, when asked, are quite verbal about your beliefs but not trying to convert anyone. In fact it was nice to be able to talk to you about it without feeling like the fact that I eat eggs wasn't going to get in the way of getting help with this.

Speaking of eggs, back to the drawing board.

Apparently the eggs are fine for the dog but the cats are a PITA - as cats are wont to be.
Apparently, eggs don't actually have taurine according to the latest info. Humans and dogs, among other animals, synthesize taurine from two amino acids that are in eggs so it makes it a good source of taurine for most of us but cats, being who they are, are above that.
They need their taurine served to them whole on a silver platter.

There is a supplement that has a synthesized form
http://www.vegepet.com/vegetarian_cats_dogs.html

I haven't yet looked at the site for price or how to order it because I'm still deciding if I'm going to keep working on this or sign over the mortgage, leave the checkbook, hand over the car keys and the dog and I can walk away quietly. They can have it all, go buy friskies and high paw each other all over the place pushy little brats. You know that this was their plan all along.

Posted 2 months ago #
phoo

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Jules: You may find this article interesting. I salute you for not feeding a kibble to your cat. Cheap kibble is often responsible for health problems later in life.

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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What cats will eat and what is good for them are two different things. My sister's cat was obsessed with all things rubber: rubber bands, pencil erasers, things of that ilk. The rabbit is obsessed with natural fibers, ergo, has eaten one coat, two expensive sweaters and a pair of jeans. Bad Bunny.

I'm interested to know if your cats are indoor-outdoor cats...outdoor cats are responsible for eating millions of songbirds a year. I would never again have an "outdoor" cat for that reason.

I wonder what the ethical problem with feeding cats fish is? That is what sled dogs in Alaska eat: salmon. Not kibble, not leftover slaughterhouse scraps. Fish. I have always been amused by cat food ads that promise "the taste cats love"...when I have never actually seen a cat take down a steer in the wild. The taste cats love is fish, mouse,rat vole, and in the case of my late, departed 21 year old calico, gray squirrel. Except the tail. Too fluffy. Cats need the bone in these animals. I read a study where they fed cats JUST meat , and their little legs couldn't support them. They need the calcium.

Posted 2 months ago #
Jules

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Actually, I do have one question that no one has answered. WHY do you HAVE pets?

Posted 2 months ago #
MidWest

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"outdoor cats are responsible for eating millions of songbirds a year"

Reading the studies (I have), turns out that feral cats are responsible for the vast majority of predation of birds and other wildlife.

Posted 2 months ago #
Compass Rose

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I agree with PG and Jules. Cats are carnivores, not, as Penny aptly put it, an extension of your lifestyle and choices. I'd love for everyone in our household to be vegetarian, but the mister refuses to and I don't think it would be right (and possibly would be unhealthy) to try to force the kitty to go veg.

LIA, your diligence about feeding your pets food that's both humane and healthy for them is impressive. We feed our cat high quality canned food (never dry food), but at some point I'd like to start making food for her.

I'm one of those bad people who has a purebred cat. We would have liked to adopt a rescue cat but I'm horribly allergic to almost all kitties.

Posted 2 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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Midwest - Your comment reminds me of a story I read about last month.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/23/16657915-natural-born-killer-campaign-demands-eradication-of-cats-from-new-zealand?lite

The domestic cat should be eradicated from New Zealand because it is a “natural born killer” that is wiping out native wildlife, according to a prominent economist in the South Pacific country.

Gareth Morgan, whose blog also describes him as a businessman, philanthropist and “motorcycle adventurer," has set up the “Cats to Go” campaign, urging people to “make this cat your last.”

On a website set up to promote the campaign, Morgan said that cats were killing native birds “faster than they can possibly breed” in New Zealand’s cities.

He claimed cats had contributed to the extinction of nine native bird species and were affecting 33 endangered bird species.

Posted 2 months ago #
Compass Rose

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There was a story in the NYT last month about a study which found that cats kill birds and mammals at a much higher rate than previously thought:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/science/that-cuddly-kitty-of-yours-is-a-killer.html?_r=0

Posted 2 months ago #
gracie

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And this is a new discovery that outside cats kill birds???

Posted 2 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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I wonder if they can get a professional to hypnotize the cats in New Zealand to become vegan;)

Posted 2 months ago #
great idea

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I would gladly go to New Zealand and take care of a few hundred cats.

can't stand 'em.

Posted 2 months ago #
Compass Rose

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Oh, GI. And here I thought you were an okay guy. I'm afraid we can't be friends.

Posted 2 months ago #
racerX

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I would gladly go to New Zealand and take care of a few hundred cats.

can't stand 'em.

can't stand cats?! :o

Posted 2 months ago #
onederfullone

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we're still on this crap?

come on, everytime a bird flies Waldo sees it, everytime a piece of lint moves, Waldo sees it. I try to explain, 'bird bad, lint good'.

We aint buying your bullshit, frankly.

Good thing about Waldo, still just a tyke in my book, he's brought home some interesting stuff.

I'll leave it at that. Don't need to offend any nut munching rat loving cats go to hell idiots. lol

Further.

Posted 2 months ago #
iPlod

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I have starling jerky treats for your cats if you're interested.

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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Don't cats bring dead stuff in the house as a sort of offering? My outdoor cat did that all the time when I was a kid.

Then again, dogs do it as well. Back when we had a rat problem in the back garden the female hound would spend all day outside sniffing the air and hunting. One day she walked in with what appeared to be a piece of old shoe with a lace attached and tried to jump up on the couch to put it in my lap. I told her no so she set it at my feet. It was a huge dead rattus.

She was very proud of herself.

Posted 2 months ago #
onederfullone

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Cats, dogs, "pets" always try to contribute to their pack, pride, dude, dudess.

Waldo has yet to bring in any alfalfa. fwiw.

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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I kind of like that I have three. They really have a pack mentality. 1 is one, 2 are a couple, 3 are a pack. A pack of bad behavior.

Posted 2 months ago #
SmartsyArtsy

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In VT, my indoor/outdoor kitty went after moles. He never brought them in the house, or even on the deck, just deposited them under an arborvitae.

PG, I want a pack too! Even a naughty one.

Posted 2 months ago #
pennygirl

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SA...

The interaction is really interesting to watch. They definitely go through cycles, but the one constant is that the female is top hound. When the males get sick of that they become fast friends for a day or so. Then it's back to the status quo.

Posted 2 months ago #
BuffaloHawk

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You should rename the female hound Maggie:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyZS0aCIYIk

Posted 2 months ago #
SmartsyArtsy

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PG, Lillie would be top dog. She even bossed around all the doxies she was fostered with (before she came to me). The foster mom said she didn't know how to interact or play when she first arrived but within 10 days she was "ruling the roost".

Posted 2 months ago #
Ernie

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Mrs Ernie want's a pack. We have two and she want's a third.

I'm not so comfortable being out numbered.

BTW, this thread sure mellowed out....

Posted 2 months ago #

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