1. 

   Nutmeg
   

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   I see there are a lot of dog owners here, so I thought I'd take the
   opportunity to ask a question. I'm a cat owner; never had a dog.

   It seems that recently harnesses for dogs have gotten very popular.
   I'm talking about the straps that go around the chest and legs and
   avoid the neck. But I still see lots of dogs with neck-collars.
   Isn't that bad for the dog? I see dogs straining against their
   leashes, and it seems that all that force on the throat and neck
   vertebrae would be very damaging. When I walk around Greenlake
   I hate to see people yanking on their dogs with those collars.

   What say the dog owners here? (Dogs can respond also.)

   Posted 3 years ago #
2. 

   jubbjubb
   

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   We used the harness for the first year or so, but my dog quickly came to hate it -- it was a fight to go for a walk. I think it kind of chaffed her "arm" pits -- she's got kind of a funny shape that makes vests, harnesses, life jackets, etc. not fit well. So, we do a variety of collars. And, yeah there is a lot of straining, but I let her decide how hard she wants to pull. I think most of the dog owners I know have that sense of how much pressure you can put on the neck before it becomes uncomfortable/damaging to the pet. After several years we're pretty well connected and we all know who's going to win which battles pretty early on.

   Posted 3 years ago #
3. 

   Nora Bell
   

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   Then again I see dog owners who violently yank a dog along who is only trying to do what he/she came out there to do. There are good dog owners and bad ones, just like there are good cat owners and bad ones. So I think collars can be a danger in some cases.
   On a side note I know a guy who takes his cat out on a little harness, for walkies. He says the cat enjoys it but she doesn't look like she's having fun to me.

   Posted 3 years ago #
4. 

   MidWest
   

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   Watching "The Dog Whisperer" has been very revealing-Cesar Milan places the collar in a different place than most folks. My wife wants a dog, badly, and we would consider using the "more forward" collar technique to see if it works if we adopted a canine.

   Some say, if the dog is pulling you, the dog is in charge, not you. I have no idea if this is the case, but I have noticed the dog owners that have the dog right next to them tend to stop at curbs, make the dog wait for their command to go forward, and overall seem to really have the dog under control. People with a 20'leash sometimes go by the office being dragged along by their dog. Certainly appears as if the dog is in control. Yet again, not sure (I know cats really well, but not dogs).

   Posted 3 years ago #
5. 

   wildernessbarbie
   

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   I had a Beagle/Basset mix, and all he cared about what what he could smell. A harness just dispersed the effect of the leash, and gave him more ability to pull (think sled dog). The best thing for that type of dog is a Gentle Leader or Haltie. They function like a horse harness. Leash attaches under the chin, dog pulls, their head gets pulled around, can't see where they wanted to go anymore, TA DA! Instant, pain free correction. Doesn't work for short muzzle dogs though (Boxers, Bulldogs).

   Most of the time my Jack Russel wears a harness, though if not fitted properly it can chafe his leg pits as well. When I need him to be calmer, I put the Gentle Leader on him, as it has pressure points that calm the animal down and encourage them to be more submissive.

   Some dogs have a very delicate throat, and it is damaging. I totally agree with the "if the dog is pulling, they're in charge" theory. For short periods, that might be OK. Never in a crowd though.

   Posted 3 years ago #
6. 

   ballardmike
   

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   Harness works good for one - not so much for the other. I prefer the pinch collar for the non-too-subtle reminder (on the dog) but the Mrs. thinks it's "cruel". She is far more sensitive than I.

   The one dog actually does better on Heel without a leash on vs. with leash. That could be due to lack of consistency on my part with leash control.

   It's all about consistency with the dogs.

   Posted 3 years ago #
7. 

   Confusatron
   

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   My pug has no neck. A collar would slip right off of her. So we don't have a choice, we have to use a harness. Our dog doesn't seem to mind it at all. She knows it is coming when we go to the door and actually cooperates when I put it on her.

   Posted 3 years ago #
8. 

   Edog
   

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   We tried a variety of collars, and only one thing worked, and now use a link chain training collar. Even though its usually seen as a training collar, the trainer we worked with said that given our dogs strength we would probably have to use it forever and always. Without it, she can not be walked. With it, she heeds us very well. The gentle leader only burned her hair off under her eye, and agitated her. The trainer told us not to use a harness as it infuriates a dog’s instinct to pull away, so we did not try it, but given our girl I have no doubt she pull us down the street.

   The links in the chain look worse than they are, they are quite dull, and only constrict a certain amount. I fitted it around my arm and tested it out. It does not hurt. Mind you we have a 70 pound lab mix that has a strong urge to snoop and hunt. Even though we don’t hunt, she is a true hunting dog, and wants to run off and ferret things out. This might be more collar than you need. I’d say get the dog first, and figure out “The” collar later, when you work with a trainer. Each dog is different, and you’ll probably need to try a few different types.

   P.S. At Greenlake you'll see that too many people rely on the dogs collar that carries tags to provide control, that should not be done.

   Posted 3 years ago #
9. 

   cma319
   

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   Nutmeg, think of how a puppy's mom picks it up--by the neck. Dog's necks are pretty tough, so regular collar use doesn't hurt it. The chain collars are okay in the right hands but if the owners snaps and yanks at the collar, it can damage the dog's trachea. Much better are the martingale collars, which have a bit of chain at the top where the leash attaches, but not underneath.

   When a dog is pulling and straining against the collar, it means they haven't been trained to walk on a leash well. Some dogs are very hard to teach to not pull, especially hounds like someone said (always sniffing), and young energetic dogs that just want to GO. So for those dogs, the NEW kind of harness, where the leash attaches in the front on the dog's chest, are very effective. These are called Wonder Walkers or Easy Walk harnesses. The old kind of harness, where the leash attaches on top, give you zero control. These were invented for bloodhounds and tracking dogs, so that they COULD pull you along. With either harness, you have to watch for chafing.

   In my experience a lot of dogs hate the "gentle leader" leashes that go around their snouts. These can also be pawed off fairly easily if the dog is agitated, and a dog can still pull surprisingly hard if they want to. But for some dogs they work well.

   I walk dogs at the city animal shelter so I think I've used everything that's out there. We get a lot of dogs that are untrained, big and very energetic. Like, someone got a lab puppy because it was cute, put it in the backyard for the next 10 months, then decides it's too big and unmanageable and brings it to the shelter. Yay! 80 pounds of dog that doesn't know what a leash is! The easy walk/wonder walker harnesses really are the best in that circumstance--this is what we use most often for difficult dogs. Though there are still those challenging dogs that manage to pull with these too!

   Posted 3 years ago #
10. 

    Ernie
    

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    I'll second cma319's suggestion of the Wonder Walker, they are great. Mrs Ernie and I foster dogs on a regular basis, so we're out there walking all kinds of dogs with the front clip harnesses (we have a couple different sizes) and they really help to train the dogs to heal and not to pull. As noted above it is still important to take the time to train your dog to walk on a lead.

    A couple of other advantages of the harness over a collar is that they are more secure if your dog is prone to back up when on the leash and pull her head out of the collar, and I feel safer if I'm ever in an emergency situation, like crossing the street when a car runs a red light, I would be able to yank on the leash as hard as necessary to pull my dog out of the way of danger without risk of hurting her neck/throat. A couple times my dog has bolted after a squirrel when there was a fair bit of slack on the leash and when she got to the end of the lead it stopped her cold and spun her around with no pain or injury at all.

    There is one drawback however.....not cheap.

    http://wonderwalkerbodyhalter.com/default.aspx

    Posted 3 years ago #
11. 

    jj
    

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    we use an ordinary bubble collar for around the house or a quick run into the backyard (we don't have a fence). If we go on a walk, we use something called an "easy walk" which is similar to the Wonder Walker mentioned earlier.

    He's more manageable in the walking collar, but he did quickly learn little techniques to extend a sniffing session, etc.

    Posted 3 years ago #
12. 

    Te
    

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    The ASPCA has a quick breakdown of the different options with pros & cons. http://www.aspcabehavior.org/articles/22/Walking-Equipment-for-Your-Dog.aspx. One caveat I've heard is to take your dog's breed into account. Breeds like dachshunds and corgis should always use harnesses because their backs are prone to injury anyway and the additional strain on their necks could be a problem.

    PS very cool that you walk the shelter dogs cma319!

    Posted 3 years ago #
13. 

    mongo
    

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    I have a Husky, if you put a harness on them it engages their pull instinct and walks become a very unhappy thing. I use a 1.5" wide webbing collar for her leash and a smaller one that has a redundant tag if she backs out some how, she is a very very good dog but she has a HUGE prey drive if she sees a squirrel and or rabbit.

    The thing to remember is that a dogs head is a their primary "tool" in the world, and (at least in the working breeds) that their necks are much stronger then yours or mine. They are used to take down prey, establish pack order and as their "arm". Not that they can't be hurt by a leash, nor should people fail to teach their dogs to not pull but don't make the mistake of thinking they are as fragile as ours.

    Posted 3 years ago #
14. 

    Deturk
    

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    We adopted a high needs dog who had probably spent a large part of his life in somebody's fenced back yard. He has some pug in him, and he pulls off a regular collar in the time it takes to blink. We were completely at a loss and unable to walk him at all until we found the WonderWalker. I attach the leash in the front of the harness, unless we're hiking and I want him to pull me uphill, in which case I move the clip to his back. With the clip in the front, if he starts to pull his energy works against his intent, and he finds himself looking back at us, ready with our distractions and our instructions. Maybe we don't have the control all the time, and certainly he's not the best trained little guy, but we're happy and he's happy and after a year of cages and being shuttled between foster homes, we're really pleased at his progress! And I do massage his little armpits after each walk. <grins!>

    Posted 3 years ago #
15. 

    Nutmeg
    

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    Wow, thanks all! This is very informative.

    Posted 3 years ago #
16. 

    wildernessbarbie
    

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    cma319- If a Gentle Leader or the like is properly fitted to the dog, and the breed is compatible with it (IE has a muzzle long enough to work with it), then dogs CANNOT paw it off. Many owners are uncomfortable with making the collar part as tight as it needs to be, thinking (in error) that it will hurt them. Mine came with a 75 page booklet that explained it all in great detail, and despite much effort on my Beagle's behalf at first, it never came off.

    Many dogs (especially more dominant ones) do not like the feel of it at first because it puts pressure on some points of dominance (top of muzzle, back of the neck) that they rebel against. If left alone and not coddled, they will usually get used to it. Not everything is a perfect solution for every dog though of course, but I've seen it work wonders on otherwise "unwalkable" dogs.

    I don't see how a dog could pull very well with it, because as soon as they start, it forces them to turn around a look at you, opposite from where they wanted to go. Unless they throw it in full reverse and start pulling that way I suppose, but then that's just a completely out of control dog and a walking system is the least of your worries! :-)

    Posted 3 years ago #
17. 

    gordy
    

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    We use harnesses for walkies. The dogs still pull but are easier to control. Their 24/7 collars are Spindrift martingales.MudBay and All the Best carry them. I didn't feel comfortable using the prong collar and need to work on getting the stronger dog comfy with a Halti. Doggie backpacks are used for long walks, Discovery Park treks etc. They carry their own water and the long leads in the packs.

    Posted 3 years ago #
18. 

    cma319
    

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    Lol, wildernessbarbie, in walking literally hundreds of dogs per year I've seen lots of things dogs do things they supposedly can't do! I'm glad the gentle leader works for you, and I know it does work well for some dogs, but oh yeah a determined dog can pull HARD on it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
19. 

    Jules
    

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    The Naughtiest Dog in Ballard (I am his foster-mom, dog-sitter and dog-walker) uses just a regular webbing collar. I trained him to heel for me at all times, so it is generally not an issue. Interestingly enough, for his owner, he pulls like he's running the Itidarod. I expect him to heel for me, and she doesn't. It's pretty interesting how that works.

    My German Shepherd wore what is commonly called a "choke chain"...but once again, he was trained to heel at all times, even off leash. BUT, if for example, a cat crossed his path (or a bitch in heat, that has happened) I could control a 100 lb dog.

    My friend's Blue Heeler, who I walk occasionally, wears a pinch collar. Once, I was walking him down 20th and some lady was giving me holy hell about the cruelty of pinch collars all the way down the street to Bop Street when a motorcycle took off right in front of the Tractor and the dog went balistic, and basically went into low-earth-orbit...40 lbs of pure muscle and deteremined cattle-dog. (she loathes and fears motorsycles) Aforementioned lady pasted herself to the wall of the building. I told her "and NOW you know why this dog is on a pinch collar!" which barely made a dent in determined-and-pissed-cattle-dog behavior.

    Sometimes I walk my friend's Jack Russell, who can slip out of a coallar like Houdini, so sometimes she wears a harness, but she doesn't really like it.

    Posted 3 years ago #
20. 

    wildernessbarbie
    

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    cma319-My friend volunteers at the animal shelter down on 15th, and I've heard the stories, so I totally know what you mean!

    I personally think the halter style does work wonders (for the right dog), but like any walking system, it takes time to fit it properly, and train the animal (and more importantly, the owner) to work with it correctly. Certainly no system is foolproof... there's too many crazy and (like you said) determined dogs out there!

    Posted 3 years ago #
21. 

    biker_girl
    

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    How does a determined dog pull hard on a Gentle Leader? I'm interested because I was a dog trainer once, and at 110 pounds, never had a problem controlling even out of control dogs with a properly fitted GL. Even dogs who learned to turn around and pull backwards would tire out long before my arm did, so I just don't understand the mechanics of how this happens. Control the head and control the dog - it is very simple. The GL isolates and controls the relatively weak upper neck muscles, while regular collars and harnesses attempt to control much larger muscles in the lower neck and chest. What dog is strong enough to pull through a head harness, but can be controlled by a harness or regular collar? I'm really curious about this. Could it possibly be that the GLs weren't correctly fitted? It can be difficult to do on a large, excitable dog who won't hold still.

    For the record, GLs should fit tightly (tightly!) around the neck at the point where the head meets neck. The snout strap should be as loose as possible, but should not be able to be stretched beyond the beginning of the skin on the nose. A very common mistake is for owners to leave the neck strap loose like a collar, and then cinch up the nose strap, which drives the dog batty and doesn't provide good control.

    Sorry for the question which became a lecture. I am a fan of GLs and often recommended them to my clients because of the high degree of control they provide as well as the inherent yet force-free correction (pull toward something you want, and get turned in the opposite direction). If dogs really are pulling through properly fitted GLs on a regular basis, then I would like to know how it happens.

    Posted 3 years ago #
22. 

    Kat
    

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    But the gentle leader doesn't actually TRAIN the dog, so many TRAINers don't like them. Also, working at a pet store and seeing it first hand, many (most? like 8/10) dogs HATE having something on their muzzle, so even if their not pulling, they sure are flipping out which can be problematic in there own right. Dog collars like dog food or dog care differs with EVERY person you talk with.

    Posted 3 years ago #
23. 

    wildernessbarbie
    

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    No intimate object TRAINS a dog, that's the owners responsibility. It's just a tool, but a superior one for some dogs I've found. It's up to the handler to use it correctly.

    My dog wigs out when I put his sweater on. He rolls around on the ground, rubs against the coffee table, and so on. Does that mean I should take it off and let him freeze when we go for walks? No, it's in his best interest to wear it, so that's just the way it is. Too bad if the dog doesn't like it, as his owner it's up to me to make decisions that are in his best interest, be it no chocolate, yes Gentle Leader, and yes asthma pills. MOST dogs will get used to it, it's often the owner's weakness and giving in to pity that makes them fail, not the halter itself. Operator error.

    Posted 3 years ago #
24. 

    biker_girl
    

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    I really don't like the implication that many TRAINers don't recommend GLs, because indeed, many trainers do. I'm not even sure what is meant by the phrase "a GL doesn't actually TRAIN the dog". As if any collar or harness does that. What really irks me is that many trainers who will bash a GL and will then reach right for a prong or a choke collar, ss if it is somehow more worthy or "masterful" to control and train with pain and fear rather than with leverage and intuitive consequence of behavior.

    I'm not absolutely endorsing GLs over everything else, but I think your impressions of the GL are framed by your environment. You see dogs in an unfamiliar environment for a short period of time, most likely not being properly fitted to the GL, definitely not being properly introduced to it, and you judge it as a poor product. Dog collars are unique to the individual, true, but just like food and dog care, some are healthier and better for the overall wellness of the pet than others.

    Posted 3 years ago #
25. 

    Jules
    

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    I'm not a dog trainer, but I have trained 3 dogs...and dogs, like children, work better for a reward than a punishment IMHO. Three things to know about dogs:
    A. they are like small children in some ways, mentally.
    B. dogs are pack animals AND it stresses them out if they think they have to be in charge of the pack, ie: the family. I never let the dog walk in front of me. When we go for a walk,I am the head of his pack.
    C. Dogs are compulsive gamblers. They will perform for the expectation of a reward. The "intermittent reward" system works like a charm. I taught Sam to drop and lie down EVERY TIME when I snap my fingers. (I was bored one night.)

    I got Sam to wear his costume on Halloween for 3 hours....previous attempts= less than 2 minutes. How? By making him associate in his mind, that wearing it meant treats, attention, pets, ie: a party. I got my Shepherd to wear a pack the same way= wear the pack, many treats, pets, praise, etc. After a while, the treats were only occasionally; after a certain amount of time, never. I don't know how well that would work with the dog sweater; your mileage may vary.

    I agree with biker girl- different dogs all have different needs. I would never put Sam in a pinch-collar; I would not have considered having my Shepherd in a leather, or webbing collar. I've never tried a GL on a dog.

    Your mileage may vary. Like I said, I'm not a trainer.

    Posted 3 years ago #

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