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Paramedics, cops, and the usual bums at the park

(40 posts)
  • Started 2 years ago by ballardpilot
  • Latest reply from BriarRose
  1. User has not uploaded an avatar

    ballardpilot

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    On my way home from work today around 5 pm, I drove by the "Ballard Commons" and saw a fire truck, paramedic truck, 3 or 4 SPD cars, and the street was full of police and EMT personnel - must have been at least 25 or 30 first responders there. I inched by, looking to see what sort of accident or other tragedy had taken place, just as they were wheeling the gurney out of the EMT truck. They rolled it over a few feet, to the spot under the little tree where the drunks always are, and one of the usual skanky bums stood up, wobbled a bit, and then laid down on the gurney, smiling and chatting with the EMTs like they were old pals. They strapped him in and rolled it back to the paramedics truck. I drove home.

    Granted, I only got a brief look, but the guy stumbling to the gurney looked like every other drunken bum I see in that same spot in that park every day - happy, care-free, apparently blissful in his perfect Ballard paradise. I couldn't help wondering what the "medical emergency" was that warranted such a response. With all the hardware and personnel deployed, I can only imagine how much that little ride would cost *me* if I was the one getting the bill. (Of course in this case, we get to share that bill.)

    Anybody know the story behind today's medical drama at the park?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  2. eric

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    nope, don't know the story but it sounds familiar...

    i wonder what the number is, tax dollars-wise, for these responses. bet its a lot.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  3. pattr

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    Probably just sad the library was closed and was drowning his sorrows

    Posted 2 years ago #
  4. Nora Charles

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    Ballardpilot - I totally get your drift...it would be interesting to see how much it costs we the taxpayers every time this sort of crew is deployed...sounds like the street was packed with emergency vehicles...for one bum? I don't get it.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  5. Jonathan Pryce

    Jonathan Pryce

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    We keyboard krusaderz can speculate from our comfortable homes, but we will never know. Cheesy, yes, but maybe we should walk a mile in that guy's shoes.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    puzzledmonkey

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    I bet it has been a long time since that bum has walked a mile in his own shoes. The bums there are permanent fixtures in the park.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  7. Kat

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    I know my cousin had a ride in one of the ambulances and it cost her about $3,000 to go like 8 blocks and she didn't really have anything done to her except go for the ride.

    I *think* when I was in HS and we had like 4792048 false alarms that every time they came out in full force it cost them like $10k. I never really got where it cost them $10k, or even 1K, but that is what they said.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  8. Jonathan Pryce

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    Somewhat clever response. Clap. Clap.

    But we need to stop reducing people to what it costs in tax dollars to help them.

    On the other hand, may be guilt on my part, when I and the people I've worked with fail our SpEd kids in the classroom, they wind up on the street.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    buzy bee

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    In April it cost me 748.00 to get the ride to the hospital alone.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    mc7

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    Just to clarify something- if someone is transported to a hospital by the Seattle Fire Dept. there is no charge to the patient. It's when AMR (Seattle's private company ambulance service) transports you that you will get a bill. SFD only transports if the patient is in dire medical need, otherwise they call AMR. It is unclear which service was used in this case.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  11. teigyr

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    When I worked ER admitting in another state, we had people who would come in (if you're on public assistance or don't have insurance an ER is your primary care doctor) and not want to wait. They would then go home and call an ambulance.

    Serious.

    We'd see them the first time at triage and then see them carted in later for things like bee stings and common colds. It jaded me. I am sure there are people who sincerely need it but there are also those who abuse. Besides cost to taxpayers, it also utilizes resources that could be better used elsewhere.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  12. Jonathan Pryce

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    But the lion's share of the people who need the emergency services do really need them and these are the people whom we have failed.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    sleepynb

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    Well, this is why Seattle is home to housing that allows folks to drink in their units. It is supposed to cut down on the number of emergency incidents. It seems counterintuitive, and I haven't fact checked the numbers, but that's the argument.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  14. onederfullone

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    Speaking of 'lions share'.

    The people that have failed themselves, of those you would say we have failed.

    Ignoring those who continue to fail themselves, that is our failure, and it does lead to increased costs that we all have to bear.

    If the park is the new drunk house, and folks are allowed to drink themselves into an ambulance, yes, we have failed them, and by extension, failed ourselves as well.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  15. Nora Bell

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    Sounds likea lot of guesswork going on based on one witness account.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  16. BriarRose

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    Nora one self-described ‘brief’ eye witness account.
    I highly recommend some of you move to Somalia. No taxes, no regulation and no government.

    Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civil society. I am sure most of you would prefer to live in a place where there are dead bodies lying about or violently ill people sitting on the streets instead of us spending a few tax dollars to pick them up.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    ballardpilot

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    What an utterly specious, ignorant, and dishonest argument. Honestly, are you practicing to win an argument with a 3 year old?

    The choice is not no taxes/regulation/government versus (I have no idea what your false straw-man alternative is supposed to be).

    The choice is not "provide services" (fire, police, EMT) versus "live in Somalia".

    The choice is (or rather, should be), are we completely blind and stupid about how services are provided, or do we get smart about spending public funds - which are certainly not unlimited, regardless of what level the of taxation happens to be.

    This is not a question of "taxes are too high" versus "taxes are too low." It's a question of how do we spend those taxes.

    Personally, I think taxes are ridiculously low. Taxes should be significantly higher in this country, and the systematic transfer of the tax burden over the past 30 years from the super wealthy to lower income folks is at the root of many of the country's problems. Yes, I wish taxes were higher - a LOT higher. But that's not really germane to this issue. It's not about the level of taxation. It's about what we DO with the money.

    My point is that spending $10,000 of public funds (just a wild guess at what the actual costs of this kind of thing probably are) to call out 30 first responders and multiple vehicles for an hour, every time the same drunk has indigestion is just stupid. How much every year is thrown away on these creeps who make frequent use of emergency services while they slowly commit suicide in the park? Every dollar we piss away on the drunks is one dollar less for schools, safety, public health, and everything else you wish we could afford but can't seem to.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  18. BriarRose

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    LOLOL Lord! Angry much pilot? I tad less bitterness might actually get you heard.

    Do tell how our money can be better spent dealing with a situation such as the one described here. What shall be done about drunks?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  19. pennygirl

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    Actually, I have a question. (Sorry if there's an obvious answer, but I can't for the life of me figure it out)

    Why, when there is only the need for an ambulance, does a fire truck also turn up?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  20. Kat

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    I once asked a fireman that, PG, and I got quite a lengthy response. In short, response time for a fire truck is usually MUCH lower than an ambulance and when every second counts for some, getting some type of help to the scene can save lives. I guess we only have like 20-30 EMTs in the whole city, but we have like 3-5 firetrucks per neighborhood.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  21. pennygirl

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    Kat...

    Well that's what I thought. But...

    They don't seem to discriminate between what is serious and what isn't. Then again I suppose they don't know how serious it is until they get there.

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    mc7

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    Hi PG, my husband is a Seattle Firefighter (and his dad a retired medic for SFD). All firefighters are EMT trained and the city has many more fire engines and trucks than aid cars or paramedic units. Aid cars are staffed by firefighters but have the capacity to transport patients, paramedic units are staffed by firefighters who have undergone a strenuous year of additional medical training and are paramedics. Paramedics can, among other things, start IV lines while EMTs cannot. So, when someone calls 911 with a medical issue the dispatcher most always sends an engine or ladder company because there are more of them. If the call sounds life threatening the dispatcher will send a medic unit. Also, responding firefighters, after assessing the patient, will call for a medic unit when they feel the situation calls for it. And technically, "ambulances" are those white AMR vans, a company who the fire dept. will call to transport non-life threatening patients to the hospital... lots of info, huh? Hope this makes sense :)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  23. Bamber

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    I completely understand where the OP is coming from. And at the same time, I'll gladly pay taxes so that everyone can get the help they need. It is frustrating, however, when you work really hard, still have insurance that doesn't completely foot the bill, and you're up at 2am trying to decide whether or not your asthmatic son *really* needs to go to the ER, and whether or not you can pay the $500 it will cost, even with insurance. EVERYONE needs access to health care. Not just the rich, and not just the bums. Everyone.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  24. BriarRose

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    Yes Bamber that's the value and sense in a single payer system. Yes sometimes the undeserving get care but so do we. A small price to pay I say.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  25. pennygirl

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    Thank you mc7. That makes sense now!

    I need to get my head out of British ways:

    Fire: Fire Engine
    Injury: Ambulance
    Bad Behavior: Police
    Response Time: Forever

    Posted 2 years ago #
  26. pennygirl

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    Agreeing with BR. (As long as the response time is a little better than in the UK)

    Posted 2 years ago #
  27. Bamber

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    Didn't say anyone was undeserving of care - it's just...sometimes I do get a little rattled that it's difficult to afford and get care - even when you do the whole 50 hour work week and have insurance. I think that's why the OP is irritated. Or at least...that's why I'm irritated!

    Posted 2 years ago #
  28. pennygirl

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    Love the avatar Bamber!

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    Anonymous

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    BR +1

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    ballardpilot

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    I'm not irritated that people get the medical care that they need - far from it.

    I've long been an advocate of single payer: I believe health care is a fundamental right, and that everyone should have it, period. Like fire departments, police, clean water, and the whole list - it's part of what you should expect in a modern society. I'm perfectly happy to pay for that through taxes (and I do think taxes should be raised - I'm willing to have mine go up substantially).

    So it's not about denying anyone the care they need. And yes, that includes the drunks and bums. They should get the medical care they need.

    What they shouldn't get is a $10,000 ride to Harborview that ties up 30 first responders for an hour every time the library is closed because the bum wants a comfy place to take a crap.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  31. Ernie

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    Thanks mc7, I always enjoy the rare occasion when there are actual facts presented rather than just the usual speculation.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  32. jburgh

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    Without getting into ambulance abuse by people wanting to get to the doctor for an appointment, it still makes no sense that the fire truck is the first responder in a medical emergency. It can only cause a delay, while an ambulance is called. The city should have more ambulances staffed with paramedics that are first responders to a medical emergency. This is how it is done in most cities around the US, and apparently in the UK, too.

    It is also a big waste to send out so many first responders (25-30?) if in this case it truly necessitated one aid car. But in light of the way this city is run, I am not surprised.

    Imagine my surprise 3 years after moving here with my elderly father. He was having a stroke and I called 911. The fire truck showed up 10 minutes later, and took his blood pressure which was in normal range by then. They said they couldn't take him to the hospital because of this. What stupid criteria. He was obviously stroking, with mumbling, paralysis, etc. As the next fastest option, the DH and I had to get him in our own car and drive to Swedish ER.

    I do agree that taxes here are pretty cheap, but we get what we pay for, as in lack of decent services for the working, taxpaying people. Just MHO.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  33. shallow.end

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    What they shouldn't get is a $10,000 ride to Harborview that ties up 30 first responders for an hour every time the library is closed because the bum wants a comfy place to take a crap.

    Do you truly believe that it is an additional $10,000 on taxpayers for this ride?

    Posted 2 years ago #
  34. User has not uploaded an avatar

    ballardpilot

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    Do you truly believe that it is an additional $10,000 on taxpayers for this ride?

    That's just a wild guess, but I suspect it's probably somewhere in the ballpark. Think about it. Fire truck. 3 or 4 SPD cars. EMT Truck. Crews for all of those - I saw roughly 25 to 30 uniformed first responders on the scene. Figure an hour for the lot of them. What does that cost? Certainly many thousands of dollars.

    And for what? Is this how we should be spending scarce public resources?

    If somebody really needs medical care, I'm all for spending the public resources on it. But this didn't look like it was much of a medical emergency. The drunk bum (who can be seen drinking in that very spot every day) was laughing and chatting with the EMTs as he staggered to their gurney, as they strapped him in and as they rolled him to the truck.

    If this was a person who was really in need of urgent medical care, fine, I'm happy to have us blow 10 large on taking care of him. If it was just some lowlife abusing the system and wasting money that we could otherwise spend on more important things....well, that seems like a stupid policy to me.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  35. shallow.end

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    would these first responders be not paid without this call?

    Posted 2 years ago #
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    mc7

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    Exactly, shallow.end: They were all already on duty and on the clock. The fact that police were there means it was not strictly just a medical call and it's presumptuous of people to be 2nd guessing the situation without all of the facts. And I seriously doubt there were 25-30 first responders- engine 18 (the only fire dept. unit dispatched to this, according to the departmental log) has a 4 person crew, AMR ambulances have 2 people, and each police car carries 1 or 2 police officers.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  37. Roadkill

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    Oh look, this thread again.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  38. OingoBoingo

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    So all told, there is a possibility of a guaranteed 6 responders on scene for a drunk/druggie gone to ground, 4 from an engine company and 2 from a private ambulance company unless medics are called which makes it 8 responders. If there's a fight or a weapon is spotted then police make the total 9 or 10 responders on scene. Usually though, it's 6 responders.

    But wait, there's more. These drunks/druggies, generally frequent fliers, are assumed to suffer from medical problems in addition to drug affected stupor and when taken to the ER are worked up to rule out a myriad number of other ailments. Not cheap by a long shot. Care continues for a minority suffering serious injury because of a fight, fall or other travail and/or medical complication. The vast majority, though, get treated, wake up and either go to alcohol rehab or, more generally, sign out against medical advice and repeat. Repeat means the first responder scenario mentioned above.

    It would seem to make more sense and cheaper to have a 'Drunk Van' scour the alleys and byways throughout the city and yard out the obvious. The more serious cases could be referred to a higher level of care but the others could go to a drunk tank to sleep it off.

    Posted 2 years ago #
  39. stopthebuzz

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    so much angst over a post that includes the words, "Granted, I only got a brief look, but..."

    Posted 2 years ago #
  40. BriarRose

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    Enjoy it stopthebuzz. That's today's USA.

    Posted 2 years ago #

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