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• Michael
  A few things about this forum scared me to death:
  
  1. The Local Improvement Districts would likely be like in South Lake Union, 3 blocks in radius around the stops, which would mean that some of us would be hit with HUGE property tax increases and nobody is willing to say any numbers yet. Earlier I was guessing $2200/person, but that was if it is shared among most of a zip code. Split into even a 3 block radius around the line, I'm guessing that looks more like a $10,000 to $20,000 tax bill (average) per unit. Even over 10 years that doubles or triples my property taxes.
  
  Combined with increased density zoning, this forces homeowners like me to demolish and re-develop just to afford to stay in the same place. Archie McPhee was right with their "Ballard welcomes our new condo overloards" bumper sticker.
  
  Sure, the crowd was wildly optimistic, many of the speakers were from Capitol Hill, Queen Anne, Magnolia, and North Ballard areas that won't be paying property taxes through the nose.
  
  2. The operations cost estimate assumes cuts in the Metro routes 17, 18, and 28.
  
  3. In one breath they say that there will be ample time for public input, but in the next breath they say that the forum report is due to Council on July 29th and 1-2 meetings after that the council will vote to approve the map. This is being pushed very quickly right now.
  
  4. What about BINMIC? The streetcar is a development tool to encourage higher densities and it is being routed right next to an industrial zone that is already being hurt by the existing level of density. This will be the nail in the coffin for Ballard Oil, Salmon Bay Sand and Gravel, and so many of our other industrial companies.
  
  5. The meeting was from 4-6pm and there was NO mailing to announce the meeting to residents who live in affected areas. This wasn't held to get real public input from real people, it was designed to attract transit advocates.
  
  6. Councilwoman Drago's final comment was the most depressing, that she has given up trying to get more Metro service hours for Seattle.
• Suthii
  Too many plebs in the buses, bring on the trolley!
  
  "Ballard Oil, Salmon Bay Sand and Gravel"
  
  Don't worry, they'll be replaced by some dot coms!
• Suthii
  " One person wondered why the city doesn’t just add more buses instead of building a multi-million dollar system"
  
  Maybe because the city lets bums and crazies ride for free on buses downtown ? Sorry, buses in Seattle are far too 'public', run late and are filled with mental cases.
• Michael
  Jan Drago's argument is that each Metro Transit dollar gets split 40% for east side, 40% for south end, and 20% for Seattle.
  
  We have a problem right now where every municipality in the country is trying to buy buses and the supply isn't meeting demand, so we can't buy more buses as the moment. Assuming that we could buy buses, Seattle can DIRECTLY purchase Metro Transit service hours without sharing 40/40/20, but we are stuck right now.
  
  What wasn't shared is that half a dozen bus routes in Seattle, including the #15 and #358 are money makers. They are so heavily used that Metro Transit makes a profit off of them and the profitable region is inside Seattle. One tactic we could use is to put streetcars on these routes and take away Metro Transit's profit until King County agrees to re-negotiate the 40/40/20 rule.
• Ben
  Wow Suthii, what an unbelievable attitude.
• Ben
  Maybe we could make all the "bums and crazies" ride in the back of the bus while all the "normal" people enjoy the front. Would that make you happy Suthii?
• CK
  The line from Ballard to Fremont to Downtown looks great, especially because there is no bus that goes from central Ballard to central Fremont. Bus 17 goes that direction, but has inconvenient stops for Fremont, and doesn't serve the Leary corridor... so I think the route in that respect is a good one.
  
  But taking service from bus 18 doesn't make sense to me. Bus 18 goes from North Beach/Crown Hill to Downtown via 15th, Queen Anne, and Belltown. It's perfect for my work commute from 24th and 75th NW to North Belltown by the sculpture park. This streetcar line won't cover my commute, nor others' in Crown Hill or Sunset Hill (without a transfer which is always a dodgy prospect timewise) and that's fine, but buses 17 and 18 shouldn't be cut. Those routes are already packed and not duplicated by the streetcar. Perhaps shuttles to and from "Ballard Commons" would bridge that gap, but we shouldn't have these routes go less than every 15 minutes.
  
  Also, is there any estimate mentioned of total travel time from end to end of the Ballard line (best and worst case)
  
  By the looks of it I'm guessing it would be at least 30 minutes unless grade separated..
• Keith
  Streetcars sit in traffic. They cost too much, and again - they are beholden to traffic just like the bus.
  
  Seattle needs a grade-separated mass transit system. Like a real big city!
• Suthii
  "Like a real big city!"
  
  Shame we live in a small city, then.
• Randolph
  "One person wondered why the city doesn’t just add more buses instead of building a multi-million dollar system. "
  
  Rather more than one. Michael touched on one reason for this; the city doesn't control Metro transit. Another reason is that streetcars and rail systems are much less expensive to operate than bus systems, if there is enough ridership. And yet another is that buses are less comfortable than streetcars.
  
  Keith, if you think there are screams about cost now, just wait until people see the cost of a grade-separated system! Nah, nah, if we're going to get rail, rebuilding the streetcar network is a good place to start.
• JM
  Having your taxes go up is not a benefit.
• Randolph
  JM, obviously, duh. Question is what you get for your taxes. In terms of cost-effectiveness of transportation investment, well-designed rail systems are one of the best--far less expensive than more automoible roads, and less expensive than buses. (I don't rule out the possibility that poor design could create a boondoggle.)
• Nomore teriyaki in fremont
  Suthhi is correct. I ride the 28 everyday. And everyday once we hit the belltown dog park all hell brakes loose. It may be inconsiderate, but those of us professionals who need to get to work are tired of being squeezed between unshowered folk with nowhere to go are tired of it.
• m
  Have I paid off my monorail debt yet?
• JM
  "Seattle needs a grade-separated mass transit system. Like a real big city!"
  
  The monorail was supposed to do that.
• economater
  LOOK AT THIS THREE DIMENSTIONALLY!
  Remember by the earliest scenario, (2010) gas according to CIBC will be trading at or above $200/barrel ($7/gallon). Using the vehicular depletion already witnessed via $4+/gallon, the cars on the roads will be significantly lower enabling these to utilize the less congested and already existing roadways.
  Report is below. I recommend reading the futures report linked below.
  
  http://noisetank.com/hugeasscity/images/CBIC_6-...
• Duncan
  1.) There will be "undesirables" on streetcars, because streetcars will likely use the same fee schedule as Metro buses.
  
  2.) The costs of a streetcar system are about more than just property taxes: LIDs force businesses to pass on extra costs to the consumer or, in some cases, go out of business. Additionally, if Metro is providing the staffing for the streetcar, bus routes to/from Ballard would likely see their service cut in order to accomodate add'l streetcar hours.
  
  This is a total boondoggle -- a case of Seattle leaders being envious of other cities. The streetcar would provide the same level of service as a bus but at a much higher cost.
• Suthii
  "There will be “undesirables” on streetcars, because streetcars will likely use the same fee schedule as Metro buses."
  
  Well, make sure there not free so bums don't treat them like an office with wheels.
  
  I want my trolley!
• Joshua
  "Seattle needs a grade-separated mass transit system. Like a real big city!"
  
  That was the monorail. Shortsightness killed a prefectly good plan. Also sound transit had a lot to do with killing it because it was so much better then their plans.
  
  When the monorail was killed I gave up on any public transit in Seattle.
• Duncan
  To no one in particular: bus fares coming to or from Ballard are not free. The free ride zone encompasses downtown/Belltown/SoDo.
• Peter
  Seattle needs to focus more effort on providing human services to the poor, uneducated, drug addicted, mentally ill fellow human beings you sick, heartless bastards are so terrified of. Seriously, where does all this vitriol for the homeless come from? If you don't like to see people in crisis because it tears at your soul (ahem...right) then write to the City Council and ask them to provide more funding for day shelters downtown.
  
  Or -
  
  We could round them all up (should be easy because they are all sick/tired) and push them into Puget Sound.
  
  A simple Modest Proposal. You heartless bastards.
• Suthii
  "You heartless bastards"
  
  Invited any to live on your lawn recently?
  
  That's what I thought.....
• Peter
  How is inviting someone to live on my lawn supposed to help them attain a secure living situation? All that would do is debase them as a human and show how obviously cruel I was. Nobody wants to sleep on my (or your) lawn. They want to sleep in a bed. Like any person would.
  
  Instead, I volunteer at several shelters and donate money to organizations who are trying to make a difference. I write the City Council and let them know that the city isn't doing enough to help the most vulnerable members of our society.
  
  Let's turn the question around. What do you do Suthii? Sit in your moms basement banging out vile, hateful internet comments - desperate for the attention nobody will give you in real life? Saying anything contrarian no matter how ridiculous just to see if someone will respond. Well, shame on me for biting.
• Suthii
  "Sit in your moms basement"
  
  I thought you respected bums?
• Peter
  Yeouch! Nice comeback.
  
  You lose.
• Duncan
  Peter, didn't you know? The resident troll is actually a semi-retired stock market gazillionaire who spends much of his time overseas with his hot wife! A common misconception is that the uber-rich like to spend their time yachting, skiing, and dining at members-only clubs, but in reality, most of them spend their time posting excessively on internet forums. Just like our friend here.
• Suthii
  " their time posting excessively on internet forums."
  
  It's called multi-tasking, kind of like when a bum at the Dog Park in Belltown smokes crack and stumbles onto the bus for his free tour of downtown with his buddies.
• Rudy
  Meh... your act is old. Contribute something useful to the comments... you've done it once or twice before and I was surprised.
• Geoff
  "Joshua // Jul 9, 2008 at 10:11 am
  
  “Seattle needs a grade-separated mass transit system. Like a real big city!”
  
  That was the monorail. Shortsightness killed a prefectly good plan. Also sound transit had a lot to do with killing it because it was so much better then their plans.
  
  When the monorail was killed I gave up on any public transit in Seattle."
  
  Amen.
  
  I will honestly never understand why people thought the Monorail was such a joke.
  
  It is the perfect system for this regions topography.
  
  I guess two things really killed it:
  1) The jacked up financing
  
  2)The corrupt politicians behind SoundTransit weren't going to be able to skim off the top like they can with the light rail project.