PDX Ballardite writes: "has anyone else had problems with these car campers scattered around the neighborhood?"

If you live in a neighborhood near the car campers you would have experienced at least one of these issues:

--people on drugs knocking on our door at 10pm or later asking to use your phone.

--people walking thru your alley gate into your fenced backyard

--people urinating or pooping in your yard (not kidding)

--people who have recently bought drugs from a car camper shooting up in your yard

--people walking into a small party of friends you are hosting in your home and joining the party - it took a while to realize that no one at the party knew who this person was

-- being outside and finding that a stranger has walked in your house, down to your basement where your children are playing video games. This happened.

--an increase in litter in the neighborhood (specifically near the vehicle)

--having to re-route your children's walk to the bus stop to avoid a camped motor home knowing that many released sex offenders are living off the grid this way

--finding needles in yours or your neighbors yard and and the small private park nearby

Most of these are not uncommon instances near homes in the Interbay/Frelard/Balmont area. To get a car/RV to move residents of the area have to call the city. When they eventually leave ther camping spot there is usually a pile of garbage left in their wake.

I live near the Our Redeemers parking lot and this is the first I've heard of this proposal. What we learned from the tent city meeting Our Redeemers held was they had made the decision to host it before asking neighbors. They promised to do better next time . I have not received a flyer or any notification about this at all.

I didn't protest tent city and actually defend it, however the church is not making good on their promise to the neighborhood.

We also learned at the meeting that the house shown in the photo hosts an in-home daycare.

Our Redeemers placed tent city as far from their church as possible which was abutting the backyard of two houses behind their parking lot. Essetially looking out the back window of these homes what you would see is tents, blue tarps and people milling around. The promised fence surrounding tent city was a joke. It didn't go completely around the camp and was mostly blown over for the duration. They people of tent city didn't cause any problems I'm aware of and were good neighbors during their stay. However, we didn't buy into our huge mortgages to look at a sea of blue tarps and portapottys.

If they are thinking about hosting the car camp they need to open a dialog with the neighborhood beforehand. If it's approved they should think about how the placement affects the neighbors closest to the parking lot and put it closer to the street and their church. Doing the same with their dumpsters might be neighborly too. The green dumpsters shown in the photo are just a few feet from someone's front door. Out of the whole parking lot they have to be located right next to the closest home even after the neighbor has requested they be moved? Neighborly!

fulvio,

please reread what irritated has written and rethink your position also.

plus the women on the video and what sb is proposing to do is apples to oranges it sounds like.

Wow! This is the first I have heard about this idea, and my husband and I own the house by the parking lot that is pictured above. Our children and young grandchildren live in that house. This issue is of great concern to us, as we have gone to great efforts to make sure they have a safe and desireable place to live and raise their young family. We were not given any choice about tent city being in the parking lot. I understand the plight of the homeless, especially in these economically challenging times, but why not use parking lots that aren't directly in residential neighborhoods? There are other large parking lots that belong to businesses and the government that don't directly adjoin residential houses.

I think this video on CNN should give everyone pause. Watch it, or read the accompanying article. I have no doubt that all the previous commenters would not hesitate to help these women out. The number of victims of the economic downturn who will find themselves in similar predicaments is only going to grow, and not just in Ballard, but nationwide. I am glad to see so much interest in this issue, because all of us have a stake in it, and each of us has a piece of the puzzle. Together we can solve it.

I am getting real sick of the churches and these groups around her making these types of choices without really taking their neighbors into consideration. I am so sick of calling the cops because I live next to the church parking lot and get to witness all that goes on. I get no thanks for the fact that the I called 911 the second the fire was set at the church and saved it from being burn down, I get to deal with looking out my window to see prostitution going on in cars outside already (So let’s invite more people in cars to live in this parking lot!). People vandalizing, dumping things, relieving themselves on my fence, sleeping in sleeping bags under the trees! I sat and watched tent city for two months, dealt with the drunk homeless people walking up and down in front of my house and to and from the corner stores. Locked my doors and worried about letting my small children play outside safely. There had been an increase in homeless population in our neighborhood because people are inviting them here and they feel Ballard is ok with them being here. So more and more come here. Like someone above said....If you build it they will come! Also thanks so much for posting a picture of that red house. Now you see what I will see out my window everyday! I think those of use that live here need to figure out how to fight this one together. We had no advance notice with the tent city and were pretty much just notified that it was going to happen . It doesn't make a difference if we had a problem with it. These organizations and churches do not work with their neighbors. It does not benefit us. I am sick of them saying they do. I have tried to work with them and they ignore me , don't return my phone calls, and aren't being good neighbors.

This is a great discussion! As an active member of Sustainable Ballard I ask that you don't leave this whole discussion on the blog, I encourage all of you to check out the website for this project - http://sustainableballard.org/wiki/index.php?ti... - and actively get involved to voice your concerns. We need to work together as a community to deal with these complex issues and the more voices at the table the better.

We're covering the homeless car camps in a story this week for KUOW. If you've got something to say, please send an email, including your phone number so we can contact you, to news2@kuow.org

Thanks,

Joshua McNichols

I just found out by doing a quick search that the person who said point-blank to our main block representative in response to the block's legitimate concerns about noise and alcohol that "faith-based decision are non-negotiable" was from the Trinity Methodist Church on 65th ... Rich Lang (see post above).

Mr. Lang, that was totally inappropriate. You damaged your church's reputation in the community and damaged this sort of initiative with that sort of response. I trust we will not hear anything like that again from Trinity Methodist.

Apparently, he was arrested earlier (with cameras and the all the other self-indulgent trappings of someone who is, of course, just trying to do his best to help others in a behind-the-scenes way) for supporting a cause about the homeless.

There is something about this that is just not good. It really, really scares me. If you have a solution to the problem of homelessness, then work with existing programs, do not duplicate effort, consider a comprehensive solution, and solve the core of the problem. And ask yourself at what point does simply helping someone out, temporarily by putting them in a parking lot, turn into "wearing it on your sleeve."

I've know many people who have dedicated serious time and effort to helping others ... and they do NOT need to call attention to themselves, in the name of anything other than doing what they knew was right.

I think it would be a good idea to present the concerns voiced on this blog to the parties that SB has been negotiating with. I have a feeling there are just as many (or perhaps more) people opposed to this proposal than there are supporters for it. If the people who live nearby the location do not want this in their neighborhood then they should not have to deal with it, period, end of discussion. I don't think the folks who have chosen to live in North Ballard were motivated to move there in order to live next door to a homeless camp. I'm not opposed to helping homeless people but it needs to be a real solution that addresses the health and substance abuse issues, not just another band-aid enabling people to continue living on the streets, causing problems, etc.

"This first car camp will only provide safe parking and hygiene facilities for a handful of people. The intent is to prove to ourselves that this model will work. It has worked elsewhere, i.e. in Eugene and Santa Barbara, why not in Seattle?"

nwcitizen ... are you one of the organizers? In any event, it is a little bit disingenuous to say that the organizers only want to 'prototype' it to prove it works (for a handful of people?).

Bottom line is I don't really care about the "spirit" of it right now. If you want to know my block's concerns, if you really do, then it needs to put it in the same mundane category as any routine neighborhood issue - not on the high plane of your own personal agenda. If it creates a nuisance to the neighborhood, like someone's barking dog or someone's billowing black-smoke from burning leaves wafting right into my house, it's a problem that you have to be responsible for. I don't need to be compelled to bear the negative consequences of something because of your moral and ethical principles that you don't think you have to be held accountable for.

Do the organizers consent to be fully (legally) responsible for any problems? Can they guarantee that there will be no problems and that they will 'personally' address our complaints because we obviously are going to be protecting our neighborhood from strangers?

If so, that might assure our block at least, because we may get another camp just like this.

For the organizers, the churches, I don't care, consider this. Don't put it on a lofty plane, put on in the ground. The reason why is because the instant perception (my perception) becomes that when you resort to hazy ethics or faith-based decisions it means you really don't have a detailed plan and you don't know what you're doing. Treat us like we are your own neighbors - where you actually live - and assure us you will manage any potential risk of problems based on your actions by doing a, b, c, d, e, f, g, etc. Be very specific about how you are going to do that. And then admit full responsibility if something goes wrong. Then who cares, fine.

I will NOT be made to feel guilty, on some flaky basis about helping our fellow person, when I and my neighbors and close friends are asking you why we have to bear any risks and all the negative consequences of your "good intentions" and the only answer we get back is ... "faith-based decisions are non-negotiable."

When are homeless advocates going to at least acknowledge that many homeless DO cause problems? And it is way beyond just making us feel "uncomfortable". What about the swearing and harassment on the buses and streets (I've been called a bitch just for walking down the street), the leaving of trash and belongings, the public drunkenness and near constant loitering in front of certain businesses and public buildings? There comes a point where there are so many congregated together for such a long time that it makes all other people feel unwelcome. There is the responsibility on part of ALL citizens to act decently in public, yet for some reason we're supposed to give the homeless a pass. And yes, all the bad behavior does affect the overall atmosphere of a community and property values. Bottom line to the homeless-start respecting the people who live in the communities you chose to stay in and maybe you'll get more respect back.

P.S. the Ballard Pool has showers accessible to the public.

People feed pidgeons then wonder why they have a pidgeon problem.

Homeless people are already here in Ballard as they are in other parts of the city. Most are simply trying to survive in the best way they can.

Sure there are some who are visible. They make us uncomfortable. Some behave badly. Most homeless people try to stay out of sight. These are the ones you do not see. Many are working but still cannot afford to rent a place to live. Some prefer to live in their cars because shelters and low rent housing are not always pleasant and are sometimes dangerous. Some have simply given up trying.

There is no place in Ballard where a homeless person can take a shower or do their laundry. To have and keep a job requires that you be clean.

There are few places where homeless people can go to relieve themselves. We, who are housed, seldom have to worry about such things because we have a home to go to or money to enter a restaurant or store to use their facilities.

Can we as a community come together to help a few of our neighbors who are homeless? This first car camp will only provide safe parking and hygiene facilities for a handful of people. The intent is to prove to ourselves that this model will work. It has worked elsewhere, i.e. in Eugene and Santa Barbara, why not in Seattle?

All this being said, I appreciate people willing to express their concerns about this car camp pilot project. We need to talk more about this.

How do we stop it? Threatened to end support of Sustainable Ballard and their events.

I'm just as concerned about an example of the holier-than-thou attitude of the people who do these sorts of things - from a very embarrassing Ballard example. Let me relay an actual story from a neighbor of mine. To all my neighbors in Ballard, I want you to know that this actually happened.

There was a "community meeting" called about just sort of thing from neighbors to complain about a church parking lot camp, the noise all night long and the alcohol. The church leader or reverend who was responsible walked into the room ... sat down ... and I kid you NOT he said:

"Faith-based decisions are non-negotiable."

(Quote-unquote, end of conversation)

I want to hear from the church organizer who chimed in above. Is this acceptable to you? Is this how you operate? If I EVER hear a church representative walk into a community meeting with that sort of attitude, I will organize my block and my neighbors and we will hold that particular church organization legally accountable to a higher power, a.k.a., the local courts and our attorney, for ANY and ALL misdemeanors or other crimes by people on that camp. I will make it my mission in life …

Whoever that church representative was made a very big mistake by getting on a high horse like that (I think I can find out his name and the context of the community-called meeting and relay to the Ballard Community a la a complaint). Honestly, I might have been amenable to having a conversation about such a 'proposal.’ But after I heard about how the church just went ahead and did it and then when there were concerns the church rep walked in and made that "faith-based decisions" comment, no way. I swear I had better not ever hear about anything like that again. I live here, own property here, and am by definition a stakeholder in what goes on.

Churches: Get a TWO-WAY plan for communicate AND GET A CONSENSUS from the majority of the neighborhood, the people who actually live here with their families. And I suggest you do so on the basis of what is going on - on the ground and in this plane of existence.

NG et al sympathizers,

please open up your driveway and let your alloted number of families in.

This seems to be a record number of commenters on the subject. And most of us have written against this proposal.

So what can we do? How can we keep this camp from coming to Ballard?

BTW: If Giuliani can sweep the vagrants out of a city the size of NYC, why can't Seattle? I blame Evergreen State, Fairhaven College and their phony hippie degrees.

Sorry, count me as one of the heartless. I simply have no tolerance for this kind of activity. You want to open up a real over-night shelter with services to get people off the street, I'm all for it, but as far as I'm concerned this is just enabling homelessness and increasing the amount of public drug-use and alcohol abuse in Ballard. Not to mention increasing the amount of crime. I do not want it here. I would be interested if anyone has any links that would help me voice my desire to halt this kind of activity.

just saw this on CNN today: Do we really want to be known for this progressiveness??

read the entire article:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/09/19/...

The Department of Housing and Urban Development recently reported a 12 percent drop in homelessness nationally in two years, from about 754,000 in January 2005 to 666,000 in January 2007. But the 2007 numbers omitted people who previously had been considered homeless -- such as those staying with relatives or friends or living in campgrounds or motel rooms for more than a week.

In addition, the housing and economic crisis began soon after HUD's most recent data was compiled.

"The data predates the housing crisis," said Brian Sullivan, a spokesman for HUD. "From the headlines, it might appear that the report is about yesterday. How is the housing situation affecting homelessness? That's a great question. We're still trying to get to that."

In Seattle, which is experiencing a building boom and an influx of affluent professionals in neighborhoods the working class once owned, homeless encampments have been springing up -- in remote places to avoid police sweeps.

"What's happening in Seattle is what's happening everywhere else -- on steroids," said Tim Harris, executive director of Real Change, an advocacy organization that publishes a weekly newspaper sold by homeless people.

Homeless people and their advocates have organized three tent cities at City Hall in recent months to call attention to the homeless and protest the sweeps -- acts of militancy, said Harris, "that we really haven't seen around homeless activism since the early '90s."

I guess, in general, I’m having a heard time understanding why Sustainable Ballard has taken up car campers as their cause de jour. Aside from the tragic murder on Leary (which honestly, could have happened anywhere -- in a camp or on a random street) has anyone else had problems with these car campers scattered around the neighborhood? I haven't heard anything in the five years I lived there -- and I walked everywhere. Doesn't it make sense that if they are having a relatively low impact on the neighborhood as individuals, bringing them together for a communal meet and greet might spark problems? I've seen my share of homeless folks getting their daily hygiene at public restrooms all around Ballard -- most notably the Fred Meyer bathrooms. They’re in, they’re out … generally no problems. Aside from the admittedly altruistic goal of “helping the homeless,” why corral them in one place? What happened to media guy Vic and his encouragement of neighborhood dialog? Seems like almost everyone on this blog is asking for answers. Vic … join in and share some wisdom.

It looks like SB isn't trying to solve the problem of Homelessness, only to create a safe space for those who find themselves in that condition. If we want to get rid of the fact of Homelessness, we need to encourage our policymakers to get at the root causes.

So many of the comments on this thread are only concerned with the location of the Homeless. Wouldn't it be better if we worked to combat the systems that make Homelessness just another part of our society?

I support SB's plans because they are not purporting to solve all the problems; just to create a safe space for the Homeless (whether they choose to participate in a productive way or not) and maybe that sense of community will actually become an empowering force.

Aren't almost all of us just one paycheck away from being homeless???

I think we have 2 different issues here.

We have the working poor; those individuals who were literally one paycheck away from being homeless and the worst happened vs. the street people who will never be anything but.

The working poor (for lack of a better term) will accept and benefit from the services being suggested as part of the car camp idea. But they are the minority. The street people, public drunks, beggars and thieves, have no interest in changing their situation.

Enable the one group to rise above their circumstance; police and protect us and our neighborhood from the other.

Please do not encourage the homeless & drunk to hang around Ballard by building them a tent city. It's bad enough already. We had just moved into our place (yes, a condo) and a bum was wondering around in your back patio...and we live on the 2nd floor! He found a way to climb up and seek shelter. This tells me they have no respect for others property and will do/go anywhere they please. There has got to be a better solution to this situation.

You stupid morons.

There is nothing "SUSTAINABLE" about voluntary homelessness. Civic selfishness - taking from the rest of society to serve your own personal interests for getting stoned stupid - is no more SUSTAINABLE than driving an SUV to resolve a need for masculinity.

Don't be stupid SAPS! in thinking that CAR CAMPING ON THE PUBLIC TEAT is somehow noble.

You clowns deserve the society you're creating. The rest of us read Atlas Shrugged.

We're leaving.

yes, i would like to know where vic and other sustainables live in proximity to these camps? a safe distance so they can enjoy the fruits of their labors?

It seems to me, there should be enough work around the area to keep people from becoming homeless. Why can millions of people from South and Central America find jobs and some folks can't?

Here's an idea, why don't the Sustainable Ballardites open up their driveways and their homes to the bums? And I thought SB's bugaboo was global warming, shouldn't they be convincing the bums to give up their cars?

I realize this smacks of NIMBYism, but as someone who lived for the past five years with a back alleyway off 8th and Market, I know firsthand the problems vagrancy can cause in a neighborhood. Spent condoms in the crawlspace under my steps. My car prowled and a radio wrenched out. People sleeping under my neighbor's car and pawing through my garbage at all hours. And two home burglaries during broad daylight while moms were out walking their kids. This is standard issue for urban living -- and my neighbors and I were hyper-vigilant -- especially because I have two small kids. But giving people an open invite to camp out in the middle of a dense (and getting denser by the hour) neighborhood, just blocks from schools? I'd ask the overly optimistic Vic and the other members of Sustainable Ballard how close their homes are to these proposed havens for homeless folks.

This is ridiculess, these are resedential neighborhoods with grade schools where kids have to walk by. The locations are a mistake.

I have to chime in with Arisse..if you build it theywill come...PLEASE let us be known as benevolent and kind but not so naiive that the neighborhood will become overrrun with alcoholic druggy babling people who woudl be better served in low cost or free treatment programs...It is already a problem with downtown Ballard, they hang out by Habitude and beg, or are just drunk and a nusiance. There is also the storage place, where they rent lockers and cause a ruckus while inside of the facility...they are huddled drunk, drinking out of bottles, and brown paper bages over by the Post office. Set up a facility to help them recover and then find them jobs, not encourage a safe haven for them to live in cars, in church parking lots, wandering around our neighborhoods, while the rest of us fear for our safety and that of our kids....look at the root cause instead of a bandaid fix for chevy dwellers.

I know the folks who live in the red house shown on the picture above...and let me tell you, the man of that house will make damn sure those folks are behaving. He'll be sleeping with one eye out the window, waiting for the opportunity to cause significant problems for anyone not respecting the neighborhood. Plus one of Seattle's finest and most involved firefighters lives just around the corner.

The problem with homeless guys (usually, but not always, men) is definitely becoming more noticeable north of the ship canal. The last time there was a homeless camp down the street from our house (at a church on Greenwood), our car in an attached garage was prowled and package deliveries were stolen from our front doorstep for the first time ever (for both). You can't tell me there was no correlation.

If you build it, they will come......

I've witnessed my fair share of the homeless behaving badly, and frankly, I'm sick of it!

Public drunkeness is against the law, as is public defecation and urination. However, this law doesn't seem to apply to the homeless.

How does anyone expect this city to handle the burden if the rest of the country starts shipping their homeless here, because of the repuatation we have created for ourselves?

Businesses need to thrive or this town will eventually die. Let's help those who want to be helped, and hall the rest off to jail.

New York and Las Vegas did it, and so should we.

Seeing as how none of the other church camp projects, etc., have solved the homeless-drug-abuse-alcohol-mental-health-peeing-on-peoples-lawns-etc., problem, Why would the Sustainable Ballard proposal have a different outcome? Isn't this just repeating the same sorts of inadequate programs tried before but with some techie hygiene stations added?

There seems to be an increase of panhandlers near business entrances (Safeway and Walgreens especially). They stand near the front doors but away from the employees' line of sight. What can be done to help the homeless and get them to stop urinating in public, begging and lunging at people and making lewd comments (this has happened to me a few times and been very scary).

The homeless problem keeps getting worse and worse in Ballard. I have stopped going to the Safeway on 15th and Market due to the problem. They have been very aggressive while begging outside and INSIDE the store. I think this is a bad idea for our community. There must be some other way to help that is safer.

I agree..homelessness is a problem, and a sad one at that. I do not,a s expressed above support givnig a place in Ballard where they can comfortably abuse drugs and alcohol...the noise is unbelievable, plus that is also an area where middles school, and elementary aged kids walk to and from school, my kids hace complained about being afraid becuase of the people, and feeling usafe becuase of the behaviors they display while drunk or disorderly during day light hours. I was driving to work, and a man, obviously drunk at 8:40am on a Tuesday had dropped trow and was peeing on a tree with his naked butt to the cars ! It affects residents and children, and I am not sure a dense community like Ballard is the place to put them. ..and their cars.

This is a good discussion ... keep it going! I am one of the coordinators of this project, Vic Opperman, Sustainable Ballard. Many people are interested in this proposed project ... Ballard Homes For All Coalition (BHFAC). BHFAC is exploring organized car camping for people that are homeless AND a mobile hygiene station to go with it. This prototype would be for 6 people, taking 4 spaces of a parking space in a 200 parking space lot (Our Redeemer Church lot is first possible location) ... car campers would be placed near the hygiene station (shower, sink, toilet). BHFAC is working with Rep. Mary Lou Dickerson and Seattle City Council on this. We will work with businesses, organizations and any one that wants to work with this coalition.

Like Share/ Wheel Tent City, there will be screening for the participants that are homeless and there will also be a social service coordinator. We are working with Rep Dickerson on the budget for this (social service coordinators/ security/ contractor for waste management etc).

Again, this is a pilot project/ a prototype which BHFAC will be evaluating WITH the Ballard community. After Sustainable Ballard Fest and after the prototype is displayed at the Fest (Sept 27 & 28/ Ballard Commons Park), we will be organizing a public presentation where the community can come learn more about what this BHFAC Coalition is proposing. Again, we are working with Rep. Mary Lou Dickerson, each City Council member individually, Our Redeemer Church (Rev. Steve Grumm), Ballard Food Bank and a host of others.

For more information, please check out BHFAC on Sustainable Ballard's website:

http://sustainableballard.org/wiki/index.php?ti...

Thanks for your interest!! Vic

At least they're trying to do something rather than just ignoring the problem altogether. Maybe the point isn't to help the homeless move beyond living in their cars but to make living in their cars less problematic. I hope this gets people (beyond the forum) involved in a dialogue about the problem.

you're funny rudy!

I think Nerka has a good point. Is Sustainable Ballard going to provide social services or access to them to help these folks become more than car campers? Will there be a process to choose who can use these sites to make sure they are actually wanting to better themselves? I volunteer at a drop in center and there are some that are ready for help and some that are not. Most are not.

Or what is the point of providing these services if not to help the people involved move beyond living in their cars?

“Who’s watching out for their safety and the safety of neighbors?” asks Joanne Laha.

if you have people asking these questions, that should be a red flag right there! when someone moves into one's neighborhood, is this same question asked?

kinda a no brainer!

OK, so Sustainable Ballard has some nifty hygiene stations but how and why does Sustainable Ballard have any sort of elevated decision making or "jurisdiction" on this type of complex problem in our community? Don't the rest of us get to weigh in on this, especially people who live close by the proposed sites? The issue isn't simply that these people do not have homes. A vast number have major health problems, drug or alcohol addiction or mental health problems. A free camp doesn't solve any of those problems and may actually create more for nearby residents.

does it help them or just enable them?
Does anyone else remember this book?

I once lived near the site of the unfortunate car camper vs car camper murder and the overdose incident that killed two campers. This part of Ballard/Freelard already has/had informal "camps" similar to what is being proposed, with groups of 3-5 vehicles parking together on the residential side streets just off Leary. From what I saw, drug and alcohol abuse are the major issues in this population; why isn't Sustainable Ballard's proposal addressing this? Hygiene stations with security are a lovely thought but does it help them or just enable them?

I've long been a moral supporter of tent cities. Strict curfews, no drugs or alchy, security...I mean, what's not to like, right?

Well, we live a block from Our Redeemer. To be more precise, the block between Our Redeemer and Saleh's convenience store. For 3 months during the last tent city we watched dudes go back and forth, yelling and screaming at each other, consuming a lot of malt liquor, and ditching the cans before returning to the gates of tent city. It was commical to say the least...well, except for the times the cans were dumped in my bushes and filled with liquids other than beer.

I know there are legit, down-on-their luck homeless out there...folks who deserve a safe place to squat. But everyone I watched walk past my house were just plain 'ol losers.

Hmmm, I don't wholly disagree with this idea but there are many details not answered about this idea. Which parking lots? I do not like the idea of making these sites permanent. Is that the plan? I would be more inclined to support this idea if it involved having alternating locations with time limits to spread the "burden" and give neighborhoods a break. It would be better to be throughout the city and not just Ballard. Why should Ballard be the exclusive gathering grounds of the homeless? I for one am tired of the ones who hang out in front of the library all the time.