Progress can end up being detrimental to a way of life that some feel is worth preserving or it can be a necessary move towards a better future.

Most of your viewpoints are all legitimate, but sometimes you have to think a little bigger or a little smaller to really understand the issue.

I've lived in Seattle for over 50 years. It just doesn't stay the same. We've exploded in good and bad ways over the last 20 years, but the constant is change. You can't stop it, you can only hope we get it right.

more:
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Harbor...

portland figured it out. why can't we?

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tom-Mc...

"Business is not an end all Mickey"

I totally agree! Who has EVER been helped by a business or one of those nasty, nasty corporations?

Be Green!

Mickey you might have a better chance of communicating with people who don’t run businesses if you tried harder not to take every comment quite so personally and instead addressed some of the issues and realities I have mentioned. For example how do you think owners of the boarded up businesses in downtown Detroit feel about limited access roads? They all wanted those roads you know. So did the owners of empty retail shops in downtown Atlanta.

Thanks Maria, but your admonition to "embrace change" has nothing whatsoever to do with how to account for high traffic volumes that will occur as long as this is a growing metropolis. I'm not in love with cars and I have nothing against change. But since you don't know me personally, you couldn't possibly know that.

Imagining a city where only extremes are possible, ie. either business controls society or society controls business, are downright silly. Business is PART of society. I'm a realist. Business exists. If you want to kill off businesses, all in the name of change, go ahead.

I don't have an MBA. I was a history major who ended up going to -- and graduating from -- music school. I spent 20 years as a jazz musician, so you'll have to try those cute platitudes out on someone else.

Have a nice evening.

Business is not an end all Mickey. The situation this country faces today is due in many ways to Americans unfortunately thinking it is. Businesses come and they go and they change with the world or disappear. Learn to embrace change. It’s what keeps us all alive.

Really we need to stop basing our society on what business schools teach MBAs. It has been a dismal failure. Time to go back to a time when society controlled business not business controlled society.

Evan - A surface street that will take on more capacity than it can possibly handle, and will include 28 stop lights along the way? I think 15 minutes extra time is a charitable estimate. But, as I've already said, ANY amount of extra time to a business owner is lost business.

Trying to communicate with people who don't run businesses in this city is like spitting in the wind.

Note to self: become heating guy in shipyard for $47 an hour.

We used to buy seconds on ski coats at Pacific Trail and fabric at Pacific Iron!

Even to address your wondering why folks don’t care about a better downtown. When I grew up in the Seattle of the 60s and 70s many Ballardites never went downtown and if they did it was only to go to Fredericks and The Bon and Best’s. The hearty souls would venture down to Rhodes and Penny’s. The Market was nearly gone then, only about 80 vendors remained.
It just so happened that my family had very little money and you could still get actual deals on food at the market, unlike the tourist venue we see today. We used to buy 20 gallon buckets of pie cherries from a man near the high stalls for $5 a bucket AND saved the buckets. We bought halves of beef there at a much lower price than anywhere else in Seattle at the time. My mother frequented businesses in creaky old Pioneer Square buildings where fabric remnants were sold and she even knew of one that who sold pieces of fur and made us all fur collared coats. There was another that sold dented cans and other damaged goods in Georgetown so I knew that area also.

Most of my contemporaries in Ballard never went to those places so they really don’t have the same connection I do. For me Ballard is just a small part of the city I want to see remain vital.

Ok ok Nordic, truce truce! (she says as she wipes the crumbs from those fab cookies from her face) Still, as a pink collar worker I make as much as most of those listed and still cannot afford more than a dated 70s apartment in Ballard and that is only due to a very old, kind and generous landlord for whose health I light candles each day since his kids, (third generation Ballardites) will sell it before he is cold in his grave and build town houses. $30 per hour will afford you a one bedroom condo in Ballard if you save for 15 years. Or I suppose you could get a subprime loan, no longer available anyway, and we all know the result of that mess. Few of those jobs exist now in Ballard. My entire family is blue collar and always has been and none has ever worked in Ballard. Well, one in-law did work as a boatwright on the canal but he lived in an apartment in Greenwood. Ok so he did drink a bit.

None of this matters when it comes to the viaduct issue. The health of Ballard depends on the health of Seattle. For a city to survive a city must preserve quality of life for all its neighborhoods and districts and that includes downtown and the waterfront. 15 minutes saved on the way to an airport for one neighborhood is only one very small factor in that. As we came back from SeaTac last night we all commented on how great the fast elevated train will be and how if they had built the links that were proposed years ago for Ballard, SeaTac would be one fast train ride away. Even my cranky Norwegian brother in-law admits now he was likely wrong in voting that plan down.

... and no one has answered my question about how 15 more minutes driving through downtown (at the worst) has anything to do with these blue collar jobs. If anything - those folks who live and work in town (1 in 4 as Nordic Woman points out) should want a better downtown for their kids and their grandkids to live work and play in.

Yo Nordic - just send us a link next time please...

Don't worry Nordic Woman, pretty soon President Obama all get them all 'green' jobs that won't destroy our precious Planet Earth!

Here are the rates in WA for shipbuilding trades. I assure you, the wage of a barista is pretty much minimum wage, plus whatever tips they can guilt the latte-buying public out of.

Rates for cement masons and drivers down at Salmon Bay Sand and Gravel are pretty similar.

SHIPBUILDING & SHIP REPAIR - Effective: 8/31/2008


Prevailing Wage Rates for Public Works Contracts
Select an Effective Date 8/31/08 3/2/08 8/31/07 3/3/07 8/31/06 3/3/06 8/31/05 3/3/05 9/1/04 3/3/04 8/31/03 3/5/03 8/31/02 3/3/02 8/31/01 3/3/01 8/31/00 3/2/00 9/1/99 3/3/99 9/2/98 3/4/98
I want to look up Journeyman wages Apprentice wages
I want to search by County by Trade
Please select a county Adams Asotin Benton Chelan Clallam Clark Columbia Cowlitz Douglas Ferry Franklin Garfield Grant Grays Harbor Island Jefferson King Kitsap Kittitas Klickitat Lewis Lincoln Mason Okanogan Pacific Pend Oreille Pierce San Juan Skagit Skamania Snohomish Spokane Stevens Thurston Wahkiakum Walla Walla Whatcom Whitman Yakima
Please select a trade Asbestos Abatement Workers Boilermakers Brick And Marble Masons Building Service Employees Cabinet Makers (In Shop) Carpenters Cement Masons Divers & Tenders Dredge Workers Drywall Tapers Electrical Fixture Maintenance Workers Electricians - Inside Electricians - Motor Shop Electricians - Powerline Construction Electronic & Telecommunication Technicians Electronic Technicians Elevator Constructors Fabricated Precast Concrete Products Fence Erectors Flaggers Glaziers Heat & Frost Insulators And Asbestos Workers Heating Equipment Mechanics Hod Carriers & Mason Tenders Industrial Engine And Machine Mechanics Industrial Power Vacuum Cleaner Inland Boatmen Inspection/Cleaning/Sealing Of Sewer & Water Systems Insulation Applicators Ironworkers Laborers Laborers - Underground Sewer & Water Landscape Construction Lathers Machinists (Hydroelectric Site Work) Metal Fabrication (In Shop) Modular Buildings Painters Plasterers Playground & Park Equipment Installers Plumbers & Pipefitters Power Equipment Operators Power Equipment Operators- Underground Sewer & Water Power Line Clearance Tree Trimmers Refrigeration & Air Conditioning Mechanics Residential Brick & Marble Masons Residential Carpenters Residential Cement Masons Residential Drywall Tapers Residential Electricians Residential Glaziers Residential Insulation Applicators Residential Laborers Residential Painters Residential Plumbers & Pipefitters Residential Refrigeration & Air Conditioning Mechanics Residential Sheet Metal Workers Residential Soft Floor Layers Residential Sprinkler Fitters (Fire Protection) Residential Terrazzo/Tile Finishers Residential Terrazzo/Tile Setters Roofers Sheet Metal Workers Shipbuilding & Ship Repair Sign Makers & Installers (Electrical) Sign Makers & Installers (Non-Electrical) Soft Floor Layers Solar Controls For Windows Sprinkler Fitters (Fire Protection) Stage Rigging Mechanics (Non Structural) Street And Parking Lot Sweeper Workers Surveyors Telecommunication Technicians Telephone Line Construction - Outside Terrazzo Workers & Tile Setters Tile, Marble & Terrazzo Finishers Traffic Control Stripers Truck Drivers Well Drillers & Irrigation Pump Installers
Click to submit >


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SHIPBUILDING & SHIP REPAIR -- Effective 8/31/2008 -- Benefit Code Key
Classification Prevailing
Wage Overtime
Code Holiday
Code Note
Code
Counties Covered: CLALLAM
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $12.16 1
MACHINIST $17.16 1
SHIPFITTER $14.66 1
WELDER/BURNER $14.66 1
Counties Covered: CLARK
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
CARPENTER $20.44 1 6W
ELECTRICIAN $20.44 1 6W
LABORER $12.88 1 6W
MACHINIST $20.44 1 6W
PIPEFITTER $20.44 1 6W
WELDER/BURNER $20.44 1 6W
Counties Covered: ISLAND
CARPENTER $15.53 1
ELECTRICIAN $15.53 1
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $9.04 1
OPERATOR $15.53 1
PAINTER $15.53 1
PIPEFITTER $15.53 1
SHEET METAL $9.50 1
SHIPFITTER $15.53 1
WELDER/BURNER $15.53 1
Counties Covered: JEFFERSON
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
Counties Covered: KING
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
CARPENTER $30.91 1B 6X
ELECTRICIAN $30.34 1B 6X
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $29.24 1B 6X
MACHINIST $30.27 1B 6X
OPERATOR $32.66 1B 6X
PAINTER $30.27 1B 6X
PIPEFITTER $30.30 1B 6X
RIGGER $30.17 1B 6X
SANDBLASTER $29.24 1B 6X
SHEET METAL $28.90 1B 6X
SHIPFITTER $30.32 1B 6X
TRUCKER $30.13 1B 6X
WAREHOUSE $30.19 1B 6X
WELDER/BURNER $30.32 1B 6X
Counties Covered: KITSAP
CARPENTER $19.29 1B 6W
ELECTRICIAN $25.53 1B 6W
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $19.64 1
MACHINIST $19.29 1B 6W
OPERATOR $19.44 1B 6W
PAINTER $34.24 1A 5A
PIPEFITTER $19.29 1B 6W
RIGGER $19.29 1B 6W
SHEET METAL $22.21 1
SHIPFITTER $19.29 1B 6W
WELDER/BURNER $19.29 1B 6W
Counties Covered: PIERCE
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
CARPENTER $30.47 1B 6E
ELECTRICIAN $30.47 1B 6E
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $19.10 1
MACHINIST $30.47 1B 6E
OPERATOR $30.47 1B 6E
PAINTER $30.04 1 6A
PIPEFITTER $30.47 1B 6E
RIGGER $15.77 1
SANDBLASTER $30.04 1 6A
SHEET METAL $35.83 1J 6L
SHIPFITTER $30.47 1B 6E
TRUCKER $15.75 1
WAREHOUSE $13.75 1B 6X
WELDER/BURNER $30.47 1B 6E
Counties Covered: SAN JUAN
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
Counties Covered: SKAGIT
CARPENTER $21.69 1
ELECTRICIAN $18.72 1
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $11.71 1
MACHINIST $18.72 1
OPERATOR $18.72 1
PAINTER $18.72 1
PIPEFITTER $18.72 1
WELDER/BURNER $18.72 1
Counties Covered: SNOHOMISH
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
CARPENTER $28.66 1L 5T
ELECTRICIAN $28.66 1L 5T
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
LABORER $20.38 1L 5T
MACHINIST $28.66 1L 5T
PAINTER $34.24 1A 5A
SHIPFITTER $31.03 1L 5T
WELDER/BURNER $31.03 1L 5T
Counties Covered: THURSTON
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
Counties Covered: WHATCOM
BOILERMAKER $32.56 1H 6W
CARPENTER $15.16 1
CRANE OPERATOR $16.04 1
ELECTRICIAN $15.18 1
HEAT & FROST INSULATOR $47.58 1S 5J
INSIDE MACHINIST $16.70 1
LABORER $23.38 1
OUTSIDE MACHINIST $14.69 1
PAINTER $15.16 1
PIPEFITTER $15.18 1
SHEET METAL $20.26 1B 6W
WELDER/BURNER $15.21 1


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I agree that the tunnel idea was a joke from the beginning. I for one would not feel too comfortable driving under reclaimed tidal flats.

Speed is not my concern when going to the airport. A freeway down Market or 15th would make it faster to get to Golden Gardens and make it even faster for those in Shoreline to get to the airport.

A truck driver at Salmon Bay Sand and Gravel makes little more than a barista and none can afford to live in Ballard. I suppose a few fisherman/boat owners and other business owners live here live here but their hands and workers don’t . Robert in his townhouse is an attorney folks, not a cement layer. The men and women who work in the one in four jobs live in Lynnwood or Renton, not Ballard. On the very blue collar block in Ballard where I grew up where is ONE blue collar, non professional household left and they will be gone soon as their blue collar kids and families have all left and they went to be near them.

I did forget the Norseman, (never was in the place once) but never heard of the others and there is a reason they are all long gone. I seldom see anyone at the Sons of Norway breakfast under 80, all 8 of them. I understand you love the heritage of Ballard. Hey I eat Larsen’s every chance I get and the size of my rear bears evidence of that. Still, I know that they were sold out years ago to a corporation. A new viaduct will hasten the demise of what little is left of Ballard by making it faster and easier to get out to work and play and shop.

Most importantly I love Seattle, not just Ballard. The issue if the viaduct is much bigger than Ballard. For a city AND its neighborhoods to thrive it MUST have a vital downtown core. The evidence is all over the country.

We almost lost our core in the 70s when Seattle rose up to save The Market. At that time downtown was dying off and walking down 2nd or 3rd was quite an adventure. Now I happen to sorta miss the old Virginia Inn where one saw professional drinkers waiting outside at 6 am. I miss waiting for the #18 in front of the furniture store with the orange fur and leopard print sofas. I miss the dusty four story Shorey’s. I even miss the hookers who used to proposition my dad while he walked downtown with his wife and family to go to Shorey’s for a leisurely browse. I miss the night life in Pioneers Square. ( a new viaduct and you can kiss that hood goodbye) I miss the real Copper Gate and the Valhalla and almost peed my pants when I learned that the Bit was now a hot spot. It was nice to go to a place where I was guaranteed to be the only woman under 60 with the majority of her teeth and thus never had to buy a drink.

You see, while I might have lived in Ballard I really lived in Seattle and know that so goes Seattle so goes Ballard.

As much as I miss old Seattle I know that the new Seattle is more vital and has a better chance to survive into the future and not end up like Detroit. Detroit also used to be full of funky ethnic neighborhood and charming old houses and businesses. Limited access freeways ended that and it literally looks now like a moonscape. So does Louisville, and much of Boston, and St Louis, and Cincinnati, and every other city that decided that getting somewhere quick was the most important element of quality of life.

I'm not a civil engineer, nor do I play one on TV, but I know what the Northridge earthquake did in San Francisco and Alameda; anyone with half a wit knows what happens when you bulid on a landfill. For a nice example, go visit the tennis courts at the UW. As a child I still remember THAT landfill!

Oh, and as far as Scandinavians somehow being extinct in Ballard, we didn't go anywhere. The Leif Erikson Lodge of the Sons of Norway has the largest membership in the world, not just the US. The Nordic Heritage Museum is unique in America, and as far as Scandinavian restaurants, we still have one: Scandinavian Specialties up on 15th. The reason all the Norskis in town aren't eating in "Scandinavian " restaurants is two-fold; one, they are tight with a kroner or a dollar ("I can eat at home!" ) and secondly, they are all eating their heads off every day for $3 up at the Kaffestua at the Sons of Norway!

This is not about industrial vs. non-industrial.

I love our businesses in Ballard, and want to keep as much of them thriving as possible. I just think that since we all live here too - we have to make compromises and help improve the character of our city as well.

Nordic Woman: Unless you are a civil engineer - I don't think you know what can and can't be done. Leave that to the experts. The tunnel would be just as structurally challenging as building a new viaduct above ground, they both have to deal with the fill.

As far as a tunnel goes; does anyone realize what is UNDER the viaduct land? An enormous pile of landfill. When they sluiced down Denny Hill to make the Regrade, they dumped it down on the waterfront to create more land. They also beached a bunch of old ships, threw in some dead horses, and garbage; an interesting archeological site in centuries to come.

I happen to like the Viaduct; it is absolutely the fastest way out of Ballard to the airport or up Aurora.

Maria, I think you have forgotten Scandie's Restaurant, as well as the Troll Cafe and Valdi's. Scanies/The Norseman was around for over 30 years.

Although the Hansens don't live in Ballard, they were in fact born here, and their parents were members of the Leif Erikson Lodge and the Ballard Elks. Sig is a member of the Leif Erikson Lodge of the Sons of Norway.

People who work in the industry in Ballard DO live here. Most people who work in retail shops/coffee shops in Ballard cannot afford to. One out of every four jobs in Seattle is still "blue collar" , which pays an actual living wage, as opposed to minimun wage service jobs. Pac Fish isn't going anywhere, anytime soon.

The few remaining businesses left in Ballard that make tangible things will be gone in 10 years, just in time for a new elevated systems to be built. Already we see half of the commercial boats leaving for Tacoma with the rise in prices due to allowing pleasure craft at Fisherman’s Terminal. South Lake Union development will soon get rid of the rest. Don’t fool yourself into thinking you live in a blue collar Ballard Robert. That Ballard is just as gone as 90% of the Scandinavians who march in May. There has never been a Scandinavian restaurant here folks, at least not in 80 years or so. (why would anyone buy the standard all white meal of boiled cod and potatoes?) The Hansen brothers do not live here folks, never have and never went to Ballard High school.
The end of the real state frenzy will slow things down a bit perhaps but water facing property is just too dear now in Seattle for Salmon Bay Sand and gravel to remain here for long. Every time an ‘old’ Ballard single share holder of stock in Pacific Fisherman drives down Shilshole he or she salivates over the million they will reap when it falls to developers as it will.
Give up the idea of preserving blue collar industry and the ‘charm’ or even convenience of living in such a neighborhood. An elevated viaduct will not do that. Nothing will. People who work in those industries can’t afford to live here now. No viaduct will create a work/live neighborhood.

I really disagree with the characterization that the much maligned "streets option" (which I think is different than the version we voted on last time) is equivalent to "making transportation as difficult, time-consuming, expensive (time equals money), and aggravating as possible".

If the governor and legislature put their support behind it - I'm sure we could add more improvements to transit and maybe even changes to I-5 and the downtown streets to make the best of it.

Even if we don't - are you really saying that an additional 15 minutes of commute time is worth another 50 years of a ruined waterfront? Tear it down.

Rightio Meetio! Tear it down.

Who voted for these people to represent us? They don't represent me. I use the viaduct regularly but say tear it down. What kind of city lives on the waterfront but turns its back to it? Jeez people, get out of your caves this is the 21st century. If it adds 15 minutes to the drive, you know what the solution is? Leave 15 minutes earlier.

Tear it down! I use the viaduct everyday and I want gone. We have one chance to do this right. It's a blight and it needs to go. We'll figure it out. Warren and Mary don't represent everyone in Ballard. Rasberries to them.

One thing that the debate about viaduct/no-viaduct quickly losses sight of is the point I made above - it's not just about commuters and shoppers. The urban village ideal - where people live near where they work and shop - is a laudable and necessary goal and one the city should be working toward as much as possible. There are a number of more efficient and sensible ways to get there, however, than just making transportation as difficult, time-consuming, expensive (time equals money), and aggravating as possible (the result of selecting the surface option for hiway 99). If office workers and shoppers were the only folks we have to accommodate then maybe this would be a viable solution. But we can't lose sight of the fact that if one's business is making tangible things (i.e., things that can't transported over the internet or the phone), then the needs of that business have to be weighed as well. If those businesses can no longer afford to operate in Ballard because the cost (in lost time, missed deliveries, alienated customers, etc.) of transporting products becomes unaffordable, they will leave Ballard and an important part of our community will be lost. Business will "find a way" Maria, where there is one to be found that makes business sense. But sometimes there isn't one. So I have to support the elevated option as ultimately being in the best interest of all the community.

And before someone feels the need to characterize my response by getting on his or her high horse about new Ballard vs old Ballard, and neanderthals vs 'modern humans,' in the interest of full disclosure I will point out that I am a latte-sipping, bike-commuting, townhouse-dwelling, Prius-driving, environmental attorney. Sorry not to fit the stereotype.

the picture doesn't render it ugly. it will still be the best drive in the city i think.

a viaduct isn't going to attract more tourists. but having a means to get around a city efficiently will.

“Green’ anything is the least of my concerns. I care about smart and forward moving. Aspects of the ‘green’ movement play into that but for me they are hardly the focus. I even voted against the recent bond to create more parks and green spaces. Seattle has more than enough parks now and I have no interest in paying extra taxes so some DINK condo dweller wear his camping gear to walk his giant dog/child/accessory.
This is a city folks not a greenbelt and not a burb or a bedroom community. If you want that lifestyle great but get out of the city and stop insisting that a city accommodate your choices. If you want to live and work on opposite sides of the city or across the lake or in the islands then you pay the price of inconvenience. Don’t ask the city to accommodate you.
My focus is on the economic future and believe me folks the city of the future will NOT be Atlanta; it will be New York. Already New York has no lack of vital business and people pouring in every day on fast trains and other public transportation and getting around in foot and in traffic like no Seattlite has ever experienced. You can shoot a cannon through downtown Atlanta in board daylight right now and not hit a living creature. Business after business goes belly up every day there. There is no life there and business has moved to the far flung burbs which are as generic as any in the US. Detroit is a city core of literally empty lots full of weeds and ruble as a result of huge freeways being built right through its downtown. Are those examples what we want n Seattle? A congested core does not kill cities or business but limited access roads do.
Instead of looking only at your own personal tiny space or circumstances try looking at real success and real failure around the country and the world. Seattle is right now at a major crossroad. Guess what folks the future does not mean the flying cars they showed us in ’63 at the Seattle World’s Fair. The future means more people and less space and less and more expensive fossil fuel. Change is here. We do not choose change it just happens. What matters is how we deal with that change.

Mickey - If we were talking about a highway in the middle of nowhere, then you're right, the only requirement would be to maximize the flow of traffic from one point to another. But, we're not talking about the middle of nowhere - this is our shared downtown - there are many other factors to consider.

Would you want a new freeway built on top of, or next to, your own house? Wouldn't you care? We have to take some ownership of the city as a whole, AND Ballard. Neither one can exist without the other.

As far as funding the tunnel later goes - why not tap into increased infrastructure funding that could be provided by the federal government? California is going to get money for a new high speed rail network.

If Gregoire, Nickels, and our congressional delegation appeal to Obama (and congress) with a unified voice for federal funding - that might just work. Instead we'll be fighting each other in the political trenches for months, looking like morons, while the rest of the country builds new infrastructure and more jobs.

Oh please, "Green Ballard", you're not fooling anyone trying to change the subject and pretend to rile up the "old Ballardites". No-one wants that sign changed, and no - fixing problems with the viaduct will not lead to the "greening" of the industrial areas of Ballard.

I think Maria made some great points, particularly about those rust belt cities and Atlanta. We are a different kind of town - one that developed later with close knit neighborhoods and walkability as the organizing principle of our city. Which is why we can't afford to just turn our backs on the downtown core.

We'll drag Seattle into the 21st Century no matter how hard these carbon emitting neanderthals fight us! After the viaduct, we need to start greening Ballard's industrial core.

How about that ugly Bardahl Oil sign? What a horrible message to send to our children! Why not just hang a 'We kill polar bears' sign?

Ustijuf your question makes as much sense as me asking, “If a limited access road like the viaduct is good why not build one in every neighborhood? Let’s build on down Market Street in Ballard and REALLY have good business access.” That is no more outrageous than what your question proposes.
I can think of dozens of downtown places where I gladly spend much longer than 5 minutes and do just that every chance I get. I love downtown and it is a better place than it was 30 years ago. I am not looking for some green space nor am I interested in a leisure society. I am interested in a vibrant city full of people and places to go and see. Cityscapes can also be beautiful and inviting but I guess you have to actually like a city in order to see this. If you don’t like cities that’s fine but don’t live in one and try to make it into something it is not. If you want a bedroom community move to a suburb. I would have no issue at all with the entire area left behind from the removal of the viaduct was filled with condos. That is a much better use of land than a highway and a better place to build condos than Ballard.
Business thrives in New York or in Paris, both tourist destinations and both filled with heavy traffic. Try to look a bit farther than the tip of your own nose and you will see that cities with limited access highways down the middle are dead cities. If I wanted to live in a group of connected burbs I would move to Atlanta or Detroit, both horrifying nightmares of grey freeways with dead cores and no thriving business. Try looking at the total picture and not just your tiny portion.
Change is here folks, embrace it. Take a tour of the boarded up cities of the Rust Belt if you want to see what happens when change is resisted. I do not want to see the city I have loved as an old Ballardite, change into another soulless Atlanta or an empty wear zone like Detroit. Only progress works folks. Regression is sure death. Seattle is going to change and Ballard is going to change. Neither place will ever again be the place where I grew up. That time has passed. Change is not a bad thing. Don’t fear it. Change is life and I rather like life.

"Business will find a way" - in other words, businesses will be killed off and go out of business. THAT'S what she's saying.

I agree with mickey - please be honest.

Evan, I've worked downtown for years, and have spent plenty of time around the underside of the existing viaduct. While it's not exactly the garden spot of the Northwest, it's functional and utilitarian - it mostly serves as a parking lot, which I'm sure just sends "new ballard" people into a complete tizzy - imagine the gall of someone actually bringing a car into the city! Shame!

Would a rebuilt viaduct be any better or worse? I don't know, but with the fools who run this city, I doubt it would be much different either way. That space is certainly not going to be some beautiful, inviting greensward (name one public space downtown where you would want to spend more than 5 minutes) - so why wreck our highway system and hand more real estate over to condo developers and the homeless (the two groups that would undoubtedly be the biggest winners if the viaduct is removed)?

I agree that we need to make rational decisions about the city - I just think the "rational" part needs to be a priority, and the fantasy of the so-called "surface option" is simply out of touch with the real world. Childishly so.

I believe that maintaining the existing capacity along state highway 99 needs to be a minimum requirement. The "surface option" certainly would not meet that. A tunnel? If there was some miracle way found to pay for it, I'd be OK with that....but that's no more realistic than asking for a bridge across Elliott Bay that would be held aloft by unicorns and pixies. The cost of a tunnel would suck every dime from the transit budget for the next couple of lifetimes, and we're already so deeply in that hole we'll probably never get out. So we're left with other options, none of which are ideal. Personally, I believe the best option would be to retrofit and reinforce the existing viaduct, but that doesn't offer an opportunity to remake downtown into something that it's not (a grand vision of a liesure society that does not and never will exist), so it's not on the menu. Excuse me for living in the real world.

I still haven't heard an answer to my question: If it’s such a good idea to wreck one piece of our highway system, why not do the same to all the highways? Why not sink the I-90 and 520 bridges and plow up I-5? Shut down Seatac airport. Sink the ferries. Close the landfills. Turn off the sewage treatment plants...

If it's a great idea for 99, why isn't it a great idea for all our highways?

Maria - With all due respect, I don't agree that "business will find a way".

The purpose of roads is to move people and goods. If the intent is stop people from traveling and to stop businessess from moving their goods, then just be honest about that and, by all means, support the surface street option. But please don't try to convince me that businesses will find a way around reduced capacity. There aren't other viable routes. I-5 is usually a parking lot. Downtown streets are a traffic nightmare. The viaduct, on the other hand, moves pretty quickly.

I speak as a business owner who has had necessity of the viaduct for years.

oh, and ustijuf: we can still build a new highway tunnel BELOW the streets option, so you can keep your beloved highway too.

We have to make rational decisions about the future of the city, and rebuilding a piece of crappy 1950's infrastructure twice as wide as the old one, right on top of the major tourist destination in this town IS STUPID.

Spend some time working downtown or walking along the waterfront now - and say hello to all the transients and crackheads that hang out under the current elevated structure. it is a wasteland. A bigger viaduct is only going to make those problems even worse.

Why not just close all the highways?

Seriously. The morons who want to pull down the "ugly" viaduct and dismiss worries about capacity with a wave of their hands never explain why we should stop at just one little road (and really, if its ugliness so offends your delicate sensibilities, would you be happy if we just painted some unicorns and flowers on it?).

If it's such a good idea to wreck one piece of our highway system, why not do the same to all the highways? Hmm?

Better condos that house people than a multibillion dollar structure to a dying way of life based on fosil fuel.

I used the viaduct every day for two years and still say tear it down. It saddens me to know that dozens of historic buildings in Pioneer Square and downtown will have to be razed in order to build a new elevated freeway according to modern codes.

Again, if you choose to work in Federal Way then live in Federal Way. If you choose to live In Bellevue then work in Bellevue. There is no reason for anyone to actually go to Bellevue unless he or she lives there. It’s not like it’s a destination something.

Oh and I AM an old Ballardite who drives a Volvo or rides a bus and does not drive a truck but I am just as sick of the neo Ballardites with their ugly bike shorts and simpering ways as any old timer but find it foolish to hang on to an idea whose time has way since passed.

The Viaduct has been an eyesore since the day it was built. Business will find a way Mickey. Delivery trucks stop traffic now downtown and they can in Ballard also and your precious business will survive. Other cities MUCH larger than this one survive just fine with no major highway through their downtown corridor and in fact those, like Detroit for example, that tried building one have deteriorated

I find it amusing that anyone actually believes tearing down the viaduct will *poof*! leave an unobstructed view of the waterfront for the citizens to enjoy.

The land will be bought by developers and filled in with condos.

Yes, yes - by all means, tear down that ugly viaduct. And while we're at it, lets tear down the I-90 and 520 bridges, too - only jerks from old ballard use them. And as long as we're at it, I've always hated I-5 - let's plow that thing up and put in a nice, grassy bike path and jogging trail. I mean, all these nasty highways were built by old-thinking old ballard people who should get the hell out of those evil cars and get on the bus. Or walk. The self-important, spoiled condo-dwelling overlords must have our way!

Tear it down!

I'm sorry, the only provincialists I know in Ballard are the cretins in pick up trucks with their 'Save the Viaduct' stickers.

exactly! all those people who talk about how ugly the viaduct is and how it cuts off downtown from the water(?!!!?) DO NOT USE THE VIADUCT . How bout if I said 520 and 405 were ugly and I wanted them gone. I never use them so it would not affect me at all. Same with them and the viaduct, very very myopic self centered. Sometimes what is practical ain't pretty but we worker bees have got to work. And if they get their wish and do away with the viaduct, wait till that 25% more traffic gets on YOUR road!

"It’s not just about commuters or shoppers."

Robert. you've hit the nail on the head. It's a point that provincialists wish to ignore. For contractors and truckers traveling THROUGH Seattle, lost time is lost money. As the recent owner of two businesses the required me to use the viaduct on a weekly, if not, daily basis, I can easily imagine the results of drastically reducing capacity for business traffic in our region.

And even a new viaduct will cut capacity by 30 percent, but it still wouldn't be as disastrous as the unrealistic, romance-inspired surface street option.

One important aspect of Ballard (and particularly the "Old Ballard" some commenters like to refer to) that makes it vital is the light and medium industry that is still located here. The ease of getting vehicles in and out of Ballard makes a big difference for those folks. It's not just about commuters or shoppers.

Both the Ballard Blog and Seattle Times reported that the snowstorm kept shoppers close to home, and that was a boon to Ballard's local business. Do they really want to make it easier for Ballardites to take the freeway to shop in SoDo or Southcenter Mall?

I mean, maybe you prefer the malls and want that viaduct to help you get there, but that just makes Ballard more of a bedroom community and less of a real neighborhood. Why support that? Especially considering that we have to foot the bill, too.

Knuckle heads stuck in the 1950s.