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Mars Hill Church featured in NY Times Magazine

Posted by Geeky Swedes on January 10th, 2009

Ballard’s most famous and controversial church is featured in a long New York Times Magazine article this morning with the headline, “Who Would Jesus Smack Down? Mark Driscoll, a Pastor with a Macho Conception of Christ.”

The story on Mars Hill Church takes an in-depth look at Driscoll’s Calvinism teachings (especially controversial gender roles), the church’s high-tech outreach and its younger, edgier adherents. An excerpt:

Mars Hill Church is the furthest thing from a Puritan meetinghouse. This is Seattle, and Mars Hill epitomizes the city that spawned it. Headquartered in a converted marine supply store, the church is a boxy gray building near the diesel-infused din of the Ballard Bridge. In the lobby one Sunday not long ago, college kids in jeans — some sporting nose rings or kitchen-sink dye jobs — lounged on ottomans and thumbed text messages to their friends.

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  • Bethany
    Thank you Pastor Katie of Woodland Park UMC for being the voice of reason in this interesting (although scary) article.
  • Doc
    i know it's early, but anyone think this will reach 100?
  • lia
    CULT
  • milo dakkat
    Remember, God loves you unless you are a female or a homo (“chicks and some chickified dudes with limp wrists.” )

    Kinda similar to what the Taliban believes.
  • Wiggles
    Luckily we live in a free country where you are even free to be an idiot.
  • jm
    I liked it better as a hardware store.
  • There are many glaring inaccuracies in this article. The author attempts to use hypercalvinism to discredit new Calvinism. Mars Hill does not teach that children who die young go to hell. It also does not teach that missions is not necessary.
    The author has clearly latched on to criticisms of Driscoll from all sides within the church and lumped them all in together. For all the criticisms of the church, I have yet to find one that is actually rooted in Scripture. If you want to criticize Mars Hill for cultural reasons I have no problem with that, but you are criticizing the Bible at the same time. If you don't believe the Bible is true and relevant then Mars Hill probably isn't the right place for you, although you will always be welcomed regardless.
    The portrayal of Mark as some kind of dictator simply isn't true. He has one vote among 20+ people that make the decisions. Sure, his opinion will carry a bit more weight, but it's not his way or the highway. Furthermore, controversy does not feed his ego. He is humble enough to learn from his mistakes and is not afraid to admit he was wrong. He is very clear that you should receive all criticism with humility and prayerfully change what needs to be changed rather than just responding, "screw you".
    I'm not going to start a comment flame war, but I figured that I'd offer my perspective as a member of Mars Hill.
  • Thanks for the calm and reasonable reply, Randy. And good for you for not feeling defensive or embarrassed by your faith. This is the USA, and you're welcome to worship your way.

    And to pre-empt more haters: relax. If you don't agree with Mars Hill then don't go there. But please, refrain from the insults. Religion and worship are deeply private and personal matters.
  • Ayles
    To quote: "There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
  • Hater-hater
    I'd like to hear what the women and effeminate male members of this church have to say about it. Post away all you chicks and chickified dudes!

    Driscoll sounds to me like just another tiresome angry man who is afraid his you-know-what will fall off if women get any kind of respect or power in this world.
  • BlackSheep
    Submit to my husband - good one. LOL
  • billinator
    Ballard DINK,

    I agree with your praise for Randy and hope others will stay away from hate. At the same time, my impression is that this Church is secretive and cultish and that is often not good for society. So I see no problem with shining some light on what they are and what they do, even if that light is critical, particularly since that are members of our Ballard Community. I would hope that members like Randy could continue to tell us about their church so all can make informed judgments.
  • candice.
    Look out everyone... this one's gonna get heated!
  • B
    My (humble) 2 cents:
    - I am leery of personality-driven churches having watched several end badly in power struggles and affairs.
    - Friends who have visited Mars Hill have shared disturbing stories about what they heard - especially the meaning of being a "real" man or a woman (e.g. a "real" man drives a big car to protect his family, a "real" woman bears children and stays at home to raise them).
    - It seems to me that faithful, "biblically-based" Christians can disagree a lot about what it means to be a Christian in the 21st century. I don't pretend to understand what exactly Pastor Driscoll's values are. My sense, however, is that my beliefs/passions for stewardship of the earth, equal rights for gays and lesbians, as well as, free will might run contrary to the values taught at Mars Hill...
  • Jennifer
    I am a former member of Mars Hill church. My opinion is that if you stay on the outer edges, it's not a terrible place. You'll meet some very nice people. But, once you get in a bit further, it gets VERY controlling. Women are expected to stay home and not work; women in college are told they are "stealing fromt their future husband" if they take out student loans, since the future husband is just going to have to pay the loan back when she's staying home pushing out babies.
  • boardbrown
    Yeah candice...it'll get heated alright. 'Cause Seattle is full of judgemental douchebags who feel it's their duty to criticize others for their beliefs. And most of them have never been there. They read an article about a church and think they know everything.

    I've never been to the church either, so I'm keeping my mouth shut about it.
  • Women are NOT chastised for going to school. Many of the pastors of MH including Mark have college funds set away for their daughters.
  • Jennifer
    Seattle Spy,

    Correct. They are not chastized for going to school if their parents will pay for it, or if they pay for it themselves. But, they are told they are "in sin" if they take out a loan that their future husband will just have to pay back.
  • The Boss of You
    Here all this time I thought MH was a real estate investment company with a churchy tax-free veneer. I had no idea that that there was anything resembling a theology, but I guess it's something like JC es mas macho...
  • Hater-hater
    It's interesting that when any church rails against equal rights for women, gays and effeminate men, the decision to not celebrate xmas, abortion, dancing for teenagers, driving on Sundays, etc., etc., etc., it is seen as the oh-so-sacred beliefs of religion.

    But when an individual expresses beliefs disagreeing with these "religious principles", they are see as judgemental douchebags.

    If mars hill didn't want to open themselves up to criticism, they shouldn't have been included in an article by the NY-freakin'-Times.

    I just didn't see much talk of spirituality and love in that article. Just the usual fear and control that are the specialty of dogmatic churches/religions--same old tired story.

    But then who am I to give a shi*t about what goes on in my neigborhood? I just live here.
  • milo dakkat
    Finally, something to talk about besides the weather and shopping...
  • darcymc
    So--how soon before Driscoll takes on more wives and the congregation drinks Kool-Aid together?
  • Wiggles
    Manly men? Lady like ladies?

    Uh oh, Ballard's Emos and unshaven women are gonna be up and arms.
  • Maria
    When the man is more important than the message any church is on a downhill slid. That said I have never been there and will never go so I will never know the truth of Mars Hill. Organized religion makes my teeth hurt.
  • ingebor
    My inclination is to be wary of people that condone oppression of others then justify it by saying the Bible told me so. There are many Christians, myself included, who respect and welcome women and gays in our churches as active participants and leaders.

    Also, I didn't read anything about Mars Hill giving back to the community. Do they have outreach programs for the homeless or others in need?
  • chud
    >>Religion and worship are deeply private and personal matters.

    Until they start legislating their beliefs on the rest of the populace.
  • milo dakkat
    Right on ingebor! Where do you go to church? I'll see you there!
  • hummingbird
    Maria and B are correct in their assumption that Mars Hill is a one man, character driven church, only the assumption is that Mark is the man to drive Mars Hill. This is erroneous. Jesus drives Mars Hill. Any member will tell you this. It is a Bible believing, Jesus loving community who happens to be lead by a dynamic speaker. As a woman and native Ballardite I choose to go to Mars Hill because I love Jesus first. I have never heard Mark say that women should not be educated or take out loans to do so. I think the comment that women are not respected and diminished is only a rumor that those outside of Mars Hill like to spread. The women I know from Mars Hill are smart, educated, compassionate and love Jesus.
  • Jennifer
    Humming,

    There are plenty of good churches (in Ballard and beyond) that love Jesus, and which are led by Jesus, that do not seek to control women like MH does. Even Jesus himself did a lot to liberate women in his own day.
  • >> Until they start legislating their beliefs on the rest of the populace.

    Correct; that violates the "deeply private and personal" bit I mentioned.

    My grandfather testified before the US Congress on the importance of separation of church and state.

    By the way, he was a deeply religious man, with a director-level job at a regional (and Christian) private school system.

    Anyway: things work better when folks don't mess with each others' private affairs.
  • Sarah Vowell's book The Wordy Shipmates provides a wonderful overview of the religious controversy that surrounded the midwife Anne Hutchinson in colonial Boston. Her "heresy" against the Calvinism of the time prefigured mainline Protestantism of America today, and it shows that most of what people like Driscoll are fighting over today is just a replay of what John Cotton and John Winthrop were fighting over with Hutchinson and others 400 years ago.
  • jim
    Not to worry; power will corrupt. sooner or later Driscoll will get nailed in a motel with a two dollar hooker or public restroom with a fourteen year old.
  • mickey
    I enjoy reading news articles about cults. Especially cults that exist and operate in my own neighborhood.
  • Meetio
    I wonder how many of Mars critics ( and I'm one of them) are the same zippy hippies who see a Muslim girl with her hair covered and think 'multiculturalism is so important'.
  • hummingbird
    Jennifer,

    I'm sorry you felt you were being "controlled" at Mars Hill. I have not had that experience, and I have been attending Mars Hill for four years now.
  • Mars Hill - turning gays straight since 2006
  • Wiggles
    Preachy Calvinists, preachy environmentalists, preachy people generally.

    Welcome to the new Seattle, everyone has an opinion about the way YOU conduct your life.
  • Maria
    Of course they do Wiggle but opinions are nothing new. Get over it. Opinions mean very little.
  • Kat
    I don't mind Calvinism. Another belief that's been around multiple 100's of years. If we want to bash Calvinism, we need to compare all the other religions out there.

    What I don't like about the church, is not the message they deliver, but the followers. They talk about being abstinent, which I can almost guarantee that the majority of the parishioners do not practice it. Going to church in your "Sundays best" is to show you respect Him, but it seems everyone here is more concerned about vanity and impressing their fellow man. NOT what a christian should be.

    The energy that is being used to criticize this establishment should be re-directed away from the belief structure and towards the vain attendees who could care less about the actual message and are simply there because their friends are.
  • Wiggles
    "The energy that is being used to criticize this establishment should be re-directed away from the belief structure and towards the vain attendees who could care less about the actual message and are simply there because their friends are."

    Yes, better we attack the people, not the belief system.
  • jds
    Since when does "criticize" mean the same as "attack"? What are you so defensive about?

    The only comments I see from you, Wiggles, are critical of the people here and the opinions being expressed, yet you offer nothing of value on your own.

    Back to the discussion, I'm an atheist and hence any theology and/or belief system seems a little silly to me, but I understand the need for people to have one and I would never suggest they haven't the right to. When it comes to Mars Hill there's no doubt it's touched a nerve in some of the more "conservative" (comparatively) Christians around, but why can't they be left to practice whatever brand of Christianity they want? Until they start impacting *my* freedoms (unlikely) I say let them have their fun. Their parishioners are adults fully capable of deciding on their own which church they wish to attend based on their own personal priorities.

    Live and let live!
  • daisymayrobin
    Dear JDS - I'm thinking you might be a straight male, because Mars Hill seems to think "limp-wristed" males and all women are second-class, so I will conclude that the way vote (from what they've been taught at church) will impact a lot of people's freedoms. Such as the freedom to marry whomever you choose, or women's reproductive rights. These are assumptions I am making after reading about who they are, but I have a feeling I'm not too far off base.
  • jds
    You're correct, I am a straight male, but I don't see why that's relevant. Are you advocating a "they hate me so I hate them" attitude?

    The anti-gay sentiment, from what I've seen, is not a monopoly held by Mars Hill. I don't see people criticizing (on this blog) other churches. Is every other church in Ballard pro-gay?

    As for anti-gay attitudes affecting the vote, I personally believe that the fact that we vote on issues that impact or affect people based on their sexual orientation is egregious and points to a much larger problem facing our society, not the outcome of those votes.
  • Maria
    Last I heard Daisy in the US it is still ok to vote as one chooses also.
  • Wiggles
    "I’m thinking you might be a straight male"

    Wow, nice way to stereotype.
  • Stu
    JDS is on point. Here some facts about the church:
    1) In no way does the church attack or insult gays or "limp-wristed" males. The church (like MANY churches) believes that homosexuality is a sin. But, as Hummingbird pointed out, it is a Jesus-Driven church (like MANY churches) which means that homosexuals arent turned away from the door but rather welcomed and loved. This idea that MH is a gay-hating, women-downing church seems to be misguided animosity towards organized religion.
    2) When has Driscoll EVER said that women arent allowed to go to school or take out loans?! This thought is laughable at best...but pretty sad that some people believe it. Women are encouraged to start their careers and be good citizens of this nation! If a family is starving and barely making rent you think a church, MH specifically, would think that the woman getting a job is a sin, or going to school to get a better job is a sin??? Give me a break...
    3) How does MH resemble a cult i.e. secrecy? They openly invite anyone to join the service, they have podcasts for every service, and Driscoll writes books about faith and attends national pastor conferences regularly.

    With that said, you should attend a sermon and see for yourself who Mark is and what he preaches rather than spitting this regurgitated garbage about the church when you haven't been there.
  • LM
    Well, I was a youth pastor in a church similar to Mars Hill for several years when I lived in SoCal. And, I've been there on a few occasions since moving to Ballard 14 years ago. And their beliefs and approach is/was very similar. The church in SoCal was absolutely horrid when I finally came out after many years of self-hate and self-loathing. Yes, all very "loving" and "friendly," until I identified as a gay man. Somehow, when I visited MH, I got the distinct impression that the same would be true if I stuck around for very long. So I chose to not go back. And some might say, well if you did not really give it a chance, how do you know? Well, the beliefs are so similar, and the culture and attitude so parallel, that I did not want to take the slightest chance of exposing myself, my heart and soul, to that kind of base meanness. I think they should be able to exist and believe as they do, but I won't attend and if they organize to attack my rights, then they'll become the enemy. Simple.
  • Stu
    The approach and beliefs of many churches is that homosexuality is a sin, they haven't organized and attacked your rights, and you didn't give it a chance so how would you know the treatment would be the same?

    And on top of that what's your point?
  • mickey
    Stu -

    Are you a member of MH church? Just curious, because you seem awfully defensive. And your lecturing at LM is pretty insulting, to say the least.

    I, for one, was not alluding to secrecy. From what I've read and heard about MH, it strikes me as cult-ish, adhering to most dictionary definitions of the word "cult". Personality-driven.
  • silence.kit
    Man, I wish people would get over religion already.
  • milo dakkat
    It's pretty insulting, alienating and hateful to criticize "a Jesus who is presented as a wuss who took a beating and spent a lot of time putting product in his long hair" and "a Richard Simmons, hippie, queer Christ,” a “neutered and limp-wristed popular Sky Fairy".

    ...in other words, they want a less faggy Jesus and a little more Rambo Jesus (yup, that's what the world needs now).

    If that ain't homophobia (and misogyny, which is essentially the same thing) I don't know what is. Not very welcoming language for anyone who would prefer their religion to be a little more accepting of diverse beliefs.

    It's why I have a problem with churches in general and this one in particular.
  • milo dakkat
    ...oh, and as for live and let live, see how well that works for ya on a number of issues if you're not straight and/or white and/or male.
  • Что-то давно новостей интересных небыло :( Надеюсь новый год будет для автора стольже плодотворным как и прошлый!!!
  • silence.kit
    Judging from that article, this "Pastor Mark" sounds like a complete asshole.
  • mickey
    After reading through the article for the third time, the quotes that stick in my mind are all Driscoll's lamentations about "chicks", a Richard Simmons limp-wristed Jesus, and other "chickified limp-wristed" men.

    The guy sounds terrified.

    But I'm not his audience to begin with. I'm a strong Jewish woman who doesn't believe in women "submitting" to their men (read: repression, oppression, slavery). Take away the hipster language and he sounds just like Rick Warren. Maybe he can write a book and guest on Oprah too!
  • Stu
    Mickey,

    Im not a member but I did attend MH regularly (2-3 times/month) from 2004 to about early 2006 and have frankly stopped going to church all together except for a few occasions :(. And how does asking a few questions of LM qualify me of lecturing him??? Just curious. Anywho, where do I begin....

    I think it's silly to presume that MH could be considered "cultish". No doubt Driscoll is controversial and sometimes unorthodox in his preachings but because he has a strong personality (and that personality has lead to great success within the church might I add) doesn't make it fair nor justified to even consider it a cult. If that were the case then wouldn't Britney Spears or Stephen Colbert or even Lebron James be qualified as having a "cultish" following?? Because Driscoll is great at preaching (Rated in the top 50 most influential and fastest growing churches in the nation) and is confined to a church people can easilly label it a cult which I think is unfair and wrong to say the least.

    To comment on milo's post I think you're misguided on your assessment of MH. What Driscoll trys to point out is that mordern day christianity (or I guess that would be yesterday's christianity) focuses on the loving and merciful part of Jesus. For instance, Joel Osteen and others primarily preach on God's love and grace and those things ONLY. What Driscoll does is show the tough (insert masculine if you will) side of God in a day and age when men have become cowards and watered-down i.e. rape, abuse, pacifists, and leaving single-mothers. He tries to put in perspective all aspects of Jesus. To quote a movie, "I like to think of Jesus as a baby, sitting in his manger and hasn't said word yet" (Talladega Nights) lol. MH merely brings to life the many apsects of Jesus and trys not to focus on the loving "hippie" Jesus that every other church in America does. It's sad that everything you read centralizes on that theme of MH.

    Again if you only think MH focuses on the "misogynistic" aspect of Christ then Id STRONGLY suggest you do some research by listening to his podcasts because you are clearly mistaken :/
  • tortue
    I went to a Christian Reformed high school and had to endure Calvinism up close.

    No thanks, the dutchies can keep it with their wooden shoes, windmills and stay in Grand Rapids & SW Michigan.
  • philk
    To those of you who think MH is not a cult, and to those that think it is a cult or is cultish (having some of the qualities of a cult), I encourage you to answer this question carefully. Please evaluate the group for yourself. A good way to do this is based on a checklist of cult criteria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist#Ste... . There are 9 different cult checklists at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_checklist .
  • BlackSheep
    @Stu:

    "The approach and beliefs of many churches is that homosexuality is a sin, they haven’t organized and attacked your rights"

    So what was Prop 8??
  • "Shut up and do as your told" - M. Driscoll

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM7dCj7QWKs&...
  • BlackSheep
    The part of this story about the lady who didn't want to have children, but now has "a responsibility" to populate the city with Christians just made me sad. Both for her and for the children who are "a responsibility", not children who were wanted.

    http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/09/13/rig...
  • BlackSheep
    Oh, and LM - you would be more than welcomed at Mars Hill. After they "cure" you, of course.

    “Your banners, your floats, your buttons—they’re not good. It’s just like letting cancer come into a body… until the cancer consumes the body and kills you. … We will extricate the cancer, and if that person who has the cancer is repentant and wants to kill the cancer, then we’ll welcome them back. But they have to accept that anything but one man, one woman, one God, one life is sexually immoral.”
  • mickey
    Stu -

    I appreciate your answer. As for cults, I'm not sure you want to compare Driscoll with Britney Spears, but you did. Anyway, she is a celebrity and thrives on the adoration of her fans. Driscoll has become a celebrity as well. He seems to thrive on the obedience of his followers.

    Cult: 1)A system of religious worship. 2)Devotion to, or admiration of, a person or thing. (Oxford American Dictionary).


    And this statement of yours just makes me shake my head in wonder:

    "What Driscoll does is show the tough (insert masculine if you will) side of God in a day and age when men have become cowards and watered-down i.e. rape, abuse, pacifists, and leaving single-mothers"

    Are you under the impression that rape and abuse were just created "in this day and age"? Or that cowardice in men was never seen until "this day and age"?

    And equating abuse with pacifism is so strange that there is really no possible response for that at all.
  • Thomas
    On another note, I would feel better about them, and other churches, if they had to pay taxes. They are sitting on prime property in Seattle and they don't have to pay any property taxes? What exactly do they contribute to the community besides traffic and parking woes? Nada.
  • BH
    Saw this, read the comments, looked up the videos that MH has on You Tube to see for myself...

    First clip I watch is Driscoll telling people that women should not pursue men, suggesting that a young girl should have her father confront a guy they like about why he isn't asking her out (!!), and saying that a lot of christian men are cowardly and this is why many christian women go after non-christian guys.

    a.) Is any of this even biblical??

    b.) My conclusion: douche.
  • BlackSheep
    Thomas, I couldn't agree with you more. Churches should be paying taxes. Especially now that they have decided to get so politically involved. If they are able to contribute large amounts of money to political causes, they should also be able to pay taxes.
  • The Boss of You
    Ha! Thomas, right on. See my post #19. These people are all about the real estate tax free.
  • Ash
    I'm a woman and a member of MHC. A lot of the stuff people say is totally untrue. But I guess that is to be expected? I get much more respect at MH than anywhere else in this city. Just kind of sucks that Seattle prides it's self on being so diverse and accepting . . . when that obviously is not the case. But hey, I guess people need something to complain!
  • silence.kit
    It's strange how people will flock to just about anything if you put a modern face on it and pretty packaging, even if it is something as outlandish as Calvinism.
  • John
    Indie Rock at church! Let's get'em while they're young!
  • Kat
    I agree they need to being paying taxes.

    I went there once, a long time ago, and they were raising money for the church. I believe they got WELL over $300,000 from just the Ballard location alone. When did it become appropriate for churches to be making that much money. A church isn't supposed to ever make a profit nor OWN property, but I doubt that is the case here, but that is speculation.
  • Thomas
    Link to King County Property Assessor:

    http://www5.kingcounty.gov/kcgisreports/propert...

    MHC paid 4.8 million for that property in 2003. That's a lot of donations. And , they are a church and don't pay taxes. Harumph. Unless I'm wrong, which in this case would make me feel better. This just smacks of a growing mega-church getting richer and richer because of a loophole...
  • Kimberly
    I have never gone to Mars Hill, but know several people who do. I don't have a strong opinion about it, but I think everyone should be careful not to judge something based only on an article you read. So much can be mis-interpreted and skewed in the news, so like others I would suggest looking into his actual teaching before saying, "Oh, this article makes him sound like a jerk, I guess he must be!"
  • Ayles
    Walks like a jerk, talks like a jerk, must be a jerk!

    This guy reminds me of a certain Living Color song from the 80's.

    Has anyone see any large shipments of grape Flavor Aide heading to Ballard?
  • BallardBear
    I find that I must say something. I am a member of Mars Hill and want to clear up many misconceptions I am reading on this article. I consider myself a Christian and a liberal. I attend Mars Hill because they put Jesus first and they do not like organized religions. Mars Hill is very open about what they believe. There are no secrets. Mark is one of 20 plus pastors and he has only one vote. Everything that is part of Mars Hill is based upon Jesus backed by the bible. All of the sermons, songs and what we believe can be down-loaded for free off of the net.

    I observe that our members and leaders of our church are more compassionate and tolerant than what I have read in the tenor of this article and the comments sent into this web site. I am somewhat taken aback by the ignorance, prejudice and intolerance in the words by many of you.

    The article's only intent was to try and make Mark seem like a jerk and give the impression that Mars Hill is some wacky place. There is only one agenda at Mars Hill, come to know Jesus and understand his message. The article was unbalanced and was wrong in many points it was trying to make. Mars Hill is not perfect and all of us as members know that. We are trying to focus on the true meaning and that meaning is Jesus Christ. If any of you were to attend a service you would see only Jesus in the sermon, song and community of Mars Hill. Any of you are welcome to visit and see for yourself.

    As a Christian and an educated man I am insulted by the crude and childish statements like "grape Flavor Aide" or " complete asshole". You read one article or hear one rumor and you believe it. That is is just allowing yourself to be manipulated, the very thing you are accusing the members of Mars Hill of. This strikes me as ironic and naive.

    I am proud to be a member of Mars Hill and I am truly disappointed in these attacks without merit.
  • Stu
    Mickey:
    In no way did I insinuate that rape, abuse, or cowardice was created in this day. Is it not true that rape and abuse statistics have risen for the better part of the past decades??? Is it not true that more kids are born without a father than in past decades??? And how did I equate pacifism with abuse? I was simply noting problems within the male population. And if you really believe there’s a huge cult in your backyard then…well, alright lol I guess I can’t convince you otherwise…let’s stick to serious questions from now on shall we?

    Thomas and others:
    Churches, as you know, are non-profits, therefore, they don’t have to pay property taxes. Neither does The Red Cross or others organizations of the sort (which are much much bigger than MH). Churches aren’t there to make money. Do you see Driscoll rolling around in a BMW? No, he drives a 96’ Jeep Wrangler. If non-profits need to pay property taxes then let’s go hit the local Breast Cancer charity…

    BH:
    First off what your suggesting about how men should pursue women is stupid. Churches often hold plays from local schools, is that biblical? My conclusion: you’re an idiot.

    Blacksheep:
    Prop 8 was a measure to protect marriage.
  • Stu
    Finally someone with intelligence, thankyou BallardBear
  • Doc
    and i thought the comments were winding down...
  • mickey
    Stu -

    Your words, not mine:

    “What Driscoll does is show the tough (insert masculine if you will) side of God in a day and age when men have become cowards and watered-down i.e. rape, abuse, pacifists, and leaving single-mothers”

    You're not equating those things, and yet you put them all in the same sentence? If you didn't intend that, maybe you should have phrased your words more carefully.

    And if you don't understand that it's not necessarily the INCIDENCE of rape and abuse that has risen, but the INCREASE IN CONDUCTING STATISTICAL STUDIES that has risen, then you really know nothing at all about the history of rape and abuse. Nothing.

    Sorry -- I was willing to play along with you for the sake of intelligent argument for awhile, but now you're just being deliberately obtuse and I have no patience for that. None.
  • Stu
    Mickey:
    Sorry, let me rephrase: "What Driscoll does is show the tough (insert masculine if you will) side of God in a day and age when men have become cowards and watered-down i.e. rape and abuse. Men have also become more prone to leaving single-mothers and becoming pacisfists in their actions." Does that clarify things? The raising of statistical studies doesn't change the number of incidences last time I recalled, it only makes them more accurate. If you don't agree that rape and abuse hasn't increased I'd suggest turning on the tube or reading an article every once in a while or even doing some research yourself. Sorry for being rude, it's hard to keep my compusure when it seems I'm one of few trying to defend MH when others say rude things with no merit. You have been intellectual and polite throughout. Sorry agian.
  • BlackSheep
    Stu, please don't repeat that tired line about "protecting marriage". Allowing gay people to marry does absolutely nothing to damage anyone's hetro marriage. NOTHING.

    Prop 8, however, DID do damage.
  • hummingbird
    Another misconception is that the church is political. One of the things I appreciate most about Mars Hill and Pastor Mark's sermons is that they are decidedly not political. In the 4 years I have been attending I have not heard one political sermon in comparison to other Ballard Pastors I have heard who are very political. I have never been told how to vote at this church and to my knowledge I have never heard Pastor Mark tell us how he is going to vote. Mars Hill teaches the Bible.
  • Bella
    Wow....I don't even know where to start.

    First off, that's a great article by the NYT. Calm down, as an organized group, you're going to get criticised. You say yourselves that you are humble, why do you cringe when people don't completely agree with you? Come on now. Open your eyes for a half a second and realize that no institution is going to be 100% perfect. We won't know all the answers till we die - and I say this to everyone.

    In transition, I was a member at MH for a long 4 years. At first I was on board because I was new to Seattle, could meet some nice people. Whatever.

    I got deeper and very involved. (I swear I'm trying to keep it short) I met a man there, wanted to get married, but my past is messy. My "community group" - that's what they call their Bible studies- forced me to go to counseling for the things I did in the past because I didn't believe what I did was sinful. I didn't feel bad enough for the "sins" of my past and God/Jesus wouldn't be able to forgive me.....because I wasn't repentant. Follow?

    I didn't agree, but I went in "obedience." Maybe they were right? So I genuinely tried. I passed although still didn't agree, then married. He's a good man, but with principles like that to build a marriage on (a woman is to stop and drop everything once she meets her husband, then join him on his path.... closely paraphrased from an actual sermon, and that's just scratching the surface), it was simply not working.

    Not surprisingly, he was too dominating, and I'm just not submissive. That doesn't fly at alllllll at the church, and you Mars Hillians know that.

    After agonizing efforts by both of us to make it work, I knew I had to leave my husband, or at least separate....I discussed at length with my girlfriends, pastors, anyone, to convince them that I was miserable and that it wasn't healthy to be in such a relationship. Time after time, they told me if I had enough faith God would save it. I wasn't allowed to leave under any circumstances, and my protests for my own life were just plain wrong and sinful. Obviously, I got very depressed and alone.

    So in an effort to protect any sanity that remained, I left anyway. I DO have a mind, I knew that the teachings were wrong, and the church's response became a nightmare from hell. When I left, the church issued an email to everyone that I knew, urging them never to speak with me because I was living in sin. Being in contact with me would be disobedient to God.

    Well, they followed without question, and with the exception of one person, no one I had met over half a decade would speak with me.

    My point is that the author of the article is entirely correct - submit, or be excommunicated. That's a cult.

    Mars Hill is a very dangerous place, especially for women, and gays are not even welcome. Mars Hill teaches that gays are living in sin, and it's the worst kind because not only do they commit sin, they form an identity on sin.

    This post has gotten way to long, but what I want everyone to know is that the rumors are true - I repeat, MH is very dangerous if you get involved. In example, read their posts! They speak the same....just rattle off what they heard in church and cling to it in fear. If we disagree with them, they have their cult to run back to who will back them up and fire them up. And like any massive organization, nothing is going to change the mind of a mob.

    MH operates on fear and bullying. Jesus' entire life was to teach us about love. Unconditional, accepting, tolerant, faithful, LOVE.
  • BlackSheep
    Bella, I'm sorry you had to go through that - I can see how that would be a very isolating and difficult experience. Which is what was intended, of course. Congratulations for having the strength to get out of that situation, and thank you for sharing it with us.
  • ayles
    Cheers to you Bella!

    I always wondered how in the world so many smart (in appearance only), cute, educated etc... women would put up with the message that your education is meaningless and that you need to be subserviant to your husband. Why are they so afraid of a strong woman?
  • The Boss of You
    Bella's story reminds me that any faith-based system whether it's a religion or a parenting philosophy always has that horrible 'well, you're just not doing it right' thing. If you just did it right or believed enough then everything would be different. It's really quite poisonous.

    To Stu, I do have an understanding of the tax-free status of churches and other non-profits. My point is this: in the same way McDonald's real business is not hamburgers, but real estate, MH's real business is not JC, but real estate, they just enjoy the church's tax-free status.
  • milo dakkat
    I'm very glad to hear from the "chicks" and limp-wristed dudes in MH.

    I guess it is somewhat refreshing that they do away entirely with that bullsh*t line about "hate the sin, love the sinner."

    Just doing my part to get us to the 100 comment mark!
  • BH
    Stu: I'm not sure I understand your criticism of my comment. But, I think you're saying that not everything that is done/said at a church needs to be directly from the bible to be valuable?

    I do agree with that, although in this case you've got a dude on a stage directly telling people how to live their lives. Coming from a christian standpoint, if you're doing that and you can't back it up with scripture...that just seems a little wrong.

    I shouldn't have called him a douche - that was just reactionary. From what I've seen so far, I don't agree with him tho...even if I were to agree with Christianity as a whole.
  • Doc
    Surely this can't be it?!?

    React, people, react!!!
  • Gorillamagic
    $4.8 million... What else could that amount of money raised from our community build for our community?

    Not bashing the church; just a thought.
  • silence.kit
    Thanks for sharing Bella. It was interesting. Slightly tragic? Yes, but interesting. Good on you for getting out of there.
  • swassociates
    It's sure nice to see all you Christian Haters™ show you superior tolerance. It appears that the only diversity you're prepared to tolerate is what you happen to agree with.
  • BlackSheep
    I don't hate Christians, and my thought has always been that they can believe what they want, and I can believe what I want, and it doesn't matter if we don't believe the same thing.

    Then I noticed how strongly they work to influence laws and elections that affect my life, and I realized that when they do so, I have to say something about it. Telling people they would go to hell for voting for John Kerry seems to be overstepping (not accusing MH of this, not sure if they joined that movement).

    Keep your beliefs in your church, and I'll keep mine out, but the problem occurs when Christians start telling me I'm not a good American, or I'm going to hell, or what have you.
  • milo dakkat
    Ha! I never said anything about wanting to have superior tolerance of diversity. But then again, I'm not a tax-free institution with hundreds of impressionable followers.

    I disapprove of what I disapprove of...especially if they dissapprove of me first.

    (come on, y'all! A few more comments and we'll hit the 100 mark. You can do it Ballard!
  • Thomas
    Oh Stu, please don't compare Mars Hill to the Red Cross or any other charity organization. I'm aware of how tax-exempt status works. Are you aware that Mars Hill is in the business of real estate and has been since before their inception? Do your homework.
  • Chris
    I wasn't going to comment on this but soooo close to 100 I couldn't resist.
    Stu- the difference between the red cross and other charitable organizations is that they are considered a 501(c)3 which means they have to apply to exempt status and submit returns. Churches have their own their own categorization and are exempt from even filing annual reports. "Churches that meet the requirements of IRC section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS.... " and by the way, doesn't provide a legal definition of "church".
    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf
    Do some research into the tax code before you start comparing Mars Hill to organizations that actually help people. Funny how you target breast cancer too, mmmmm?
  • Doc
    I just started a church... as in right now.

    It's called COBLACK: Capitalizing On Ballard Land As a Church, Kinda.

    Our initial membership drive is starting and I strongly encourage everyone who made a comment on this post to make a contribution of $1,000 and additionally recruit 5 other investors to match your tax deductible investment.

    With $500,000+ down we should be able to make a strategic real estate purchase which will facilitate weekly concerts, speaking series, and self-help groups in addition to a bookstore, all of which will be designed to cover our mortgage as we sit back in eager expectation for our tax deductible investment to grow, baby, grow!

    Who's in? All are welcome, COBLACK will never turn anyone away unless you have no money in yo' pocket. Sorry, po' folks. But for the rest of us, don't delay!!!
  • ayles
    I'd like to get in on the top of that pyramid!
  • The Boss of You
    Since we're pushing 100, thought I'd add that I am done tolerating the intolerant. I am not going to hem and haw over the Christian feelings of people who have no qualms subjugating women and denigrating homosexuals. The positions of this pastor are wrong-headed and everyone who wants to gets to say so. If you still find solace in that philosophy, fill your boots.

    Just for the record my disapproval for the organization, doesn't mean I don't think it doesn't get to exist. It just gets to be criticized like any other public institution that advocates positions I don't believe in. There is a difference between my criticism and intolerance.
  • BlackSheep
    Exactly, Boss. I grew up thinking that religious people were to be respected. I have since met plenty of people who hide behind their cross and present themselves as being better than the rest of us - while they lie, cheat, and steal. Now I see them treating women as lesser beings, and gays as a scourge on society. I know there are plenty of Christians who are good people, but anytime someone tells me their religion before they tell me their name, I start watching my back.
  • Doc
    I've called in sick for the past two days just to make sure I would be the first to witness this...

    100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • The Boss of You
    What kind of Doc are you?
  • Doc
    self proclaimed
  • The Boss of You
    The best kind!
  • milo dakkat
    100+! Right on!

    I knew we couldn't let a thread about condos get more comments going than one about religion!
  • love your neighbor
    bella, your account of that e-mail and the subsequent shunning sounds awful. of course, i'd have to hear the other side to fairly make any judgment on the matter, but i'm sorry you had to go through that. the one thing that notice from your account is that you don't really frame your experience in terms of your individual faith. your own reasons for joining the church sound very superficial. from what i've experienced MH promotes a friendly, inviting atmosphere that is motivated by the desire for genuine community. it's no wonder that you saw it as a convenient way to build friendships, but if that's what you want, a book club sounds easier. the people who experience the emotional, spiritual, social benefits that MH claims as their mission, are the people who want Jesus. Jesus as the loving, selfless, radical, perfect Savior as revealed in the Bible. many people visit MH without any sense that they want Him, but it doesn't take long before they are confronted with a message about Him, because that's the only reason they want you in that property tax-free building: to love Jesus. any other reason why you would stay or "get deeper involved" is secondary to the support and encouragement provided by a community of believers to grow in your relationship with Jesus. maybe you were trying to be brief, but you expressed yourself in a way that suggests that this wasn't the focus of your involvement with the church or your contentions when you left. obviously i have a little bit of a problem with them completely shunning you, but like i said i'd have to hear both sides to have an opinion. i think it's significant that an early disagreement was about "sin." my experiences with other churches has been that when people join for social reasons they skim over the church's fundamental beliefs, they don't submit them to greater scrutiny, and it's not until later that conflict starts to surface. you rally around other issues but your view of Jesus (who you don't mention until the very end) is what could be most disparate with their mission. His entire life wasn't just "to teach us about love." His purpose on earth was to DIE, so that our sins could be forgiven, so that we could be made worthy to approach God and receive His grace. He didn't just teach, He showed us the greatest love imaginable. MH is an organization of fallible, human beings doing their best to both show that love in their daily lives and to teach the biblical principles of that love. they "cling" to the hope of a gospel that offends our pride and postmodern sensibilities. the doctrinal beliefs that MH asserts corporately - God's omniscient, omnipotent existence, human depravity, and biblical authority - are central to lives of individuals. they are their most deeply held beliefs. if you don't have these convictions in common, then of course you will disagree with them personally, and corporately on the most fundamental level. my question to the rest of the commenters: members of MH have already accepted that, have you? and still that doesn't stop them from being involved in their communities, work place, social circles etc. to build genuine relationships in an increasingly isolated and fragmented society. if you gave them a fair assessment based on actually attending a service or engaging in a conversation, instead of letting a reporter do that for you, you might be surprised by the presence of respect and compassion. i'm sure you would rather read articles and blog about them, but if you're really that invested in fighting their intolerance, why don't you get to know your enemy? it is, after all, what Jesus would do.
  • Hater-hater
    You would come off as less of a raving lunatic if you had a paragraph return or two. Otherwise, it's just another load of religious blah blah blah.
  • Barney Rubble
    I tend to disagree... The number one reason they want you in that tax free building is fill their coffers with your tax free dollars.

    Funny that the return key is one of the biggest keys on the keyboard... You will find it just above the shift key on the right. But it's use is dependent on you knowing when to press it.
  • Stu
    That's cool! Attack "love your neighbor" without any intellectual merit! That's a sweet way to get your point across guys...how about from now on everytime someone writes something serious and challenging let's just diminish it with tedious comments capitalizing on the fact that they can't press the enter key. Hater-Hater, you sir, are BRILLIANTT!!!!
  • Hater-hater
    Stu, babes,

    I, sir, am a Lesbian and a copy-editor. So who's making assumptions now?

    Besides, the "enter key" is the dividing line between a rant and a coherent, readable argument.

    I'm actually fond of the "delete key" myself.
  • Stu
    I stand corrected???
  • Hater-hater
    Stu,

    Brilliant, yes. But watch it there with the over punctuation ;-)
  • The Boss of You
    With more than 24 hours since the last comment, I think we can declare Hater-hater, the lesbian copy-editor the winner. Congratulations, Hh.
  • BlackSheep
    Well, of course. We're all too afraid of getting our grammar corrected to post anything.

    (Enter)

    Just kidding, hater-hater - I'm not a hater-hater hater, so don't hate me. (What?)

    : )
  • BallardBear
    Hater-Hater I think Stu is correct. You did not address any of the arguments in love your neighbor's response. Instead you decided to attack the presentation and missed the content. I find the tenor of your response as intolerant. I think you were treating love your neighbor as intolerantly as you think Mars Hill treats you. Was your responses written that way because you could not come up with rational arguments?

    To love your neighbor, thank you for your words, I appreciate your calm and clear response.
  • Bdouble
    Well I don't live in Ballard but stumbled on this article about MH. I was a regular attendee of MH last yr and had started the process of membership but ultimately couldn't, in good conscience, go along with the misogynistic, homophobic sentiments.

    I actually went to 'seek Jesus' so my reasons weren't superficial. On the surface, it does seem like a nice place full of warm, accepting, loving people. I even went to a community group near
    my house to get 'plugged in' with others from the church.

    After a couple of months of listening and learning I began to realize that this place was no different the most other 'fire and brimstone' evangelical/fundamentalist Xian churches except that it was dressed up and packaged to resemble the culture of the city. They take the bible as the LITERAL word of god. That alone shows their fundamentalism! Driscoll does not believe in religious tolerance (see Mark Driscoll tolerance rant on you tube) and this comes across in his overall message.

    Fact is Driscoll is a good speaker and very convincing to those that are looking for answers (NO ONE has the answers) so the result is that he has built a tremendous following. This, however, doesn't mean that what they are peddling isn't bullshit.

    I have since deconverted from xianity altogether and am happily agnostic (though I tend more toward atheism). Fact is I have to give MH some credit for my new belief (lack thereof) because it wasn't until I went there and became more hungry for knowledge about jesus that I dug too deep and came to a point at which I concluded that believing in this stuff as fact was absurd (to me) and I knew that I would be being intellectually dishonest with myself if I continued to claim to believe it. That said, these people can believe whatever they want, that's their business, but if someone that starts a group that believes that pink unicorns will fly to earth in ufos in 2015 to save mankind from Armageddon and they can't get a tax break, then these folks shouldn't get one either.

    Oh and FYI: to compare a megachurch with the Red Cross or Cancer Society is rediculous! The red Cross and the Cancer Society help people for the sake of it, not to accumulate property and use 'helping people/missionary work' as a mean to spread their unproven dogma all over the world.
  • Hater-hater
    a. I couldn't really understand what "love your neighbor" was trying to say because it was rather unreadable and incomprehensible.

    b. I have no issues with people who believe in Jesus, just with those who use Jesus/religion as a weapon.

    c. religious blah blah blah is still blah blah blah even with punctuation.

    d. does anyone know where I can buy a Gay Rainbow flag in Ballard?
  • Stuuuuu
    For the record I was comparing the RC and such to MH in terms of why they don't pay property taxes lol...I don't know why everyone I assumed I thought they did the same thing, but thanks for the "much needed" info Chris.

    It's puzzling to me that those who HAVE been members of MH have similar to identical stories of how they left while those who ARE members are more unique (at least more than the others)

    I can agree with you all on one thing though...Hater-hater is pretty damn funny haha
  • Chris
    Stu, you were arguing that other charitable organizations should be scrutinized for not paying taxes the same way comments in this post were scrutinizing MH for not paying taxes.

    This would indicate that you think they follow the same laws to gain tax free status.

    Which also indicates that you think they provide the same services.

    Let me simplify my comment to you Stu. Charitable organizations have to show how much they are bringing in and prove that they are a non profit, "churches" do not.
  • Bdouble
    Well said Chris, I completely agree.
  • Stu
    hehehe

    I was making the point that to criticize MH of tax exemptions is worthy of me to criticize the Red Cross (though of course I don't believe the Red Cross should be taxed).

    Maybe you all should re-read the 1st amendment and see why Churches don't have to pay taxes

    hehehe
  • Bella
    Neighbor Lover -

    I feel it's a bit ridiculous and almost a waste of time to reply....but, I can't resist.

    To address your points, I don't believe it's necessary to divulge my individual faith on a blog, regardless of the topic. However, as the learned Christian (and READER) that you are, with any sort of ticking thought I think you can see that I gave this church every opportunity to be as 'true' and accurate to the Bible as they claim. Clearly I believe there is a God, but am now hesitant to associate myself with Christians, as per my previous post.

    Honestly, four years is a long period of time to reference all I had experienced, so in an effort for focus and ease for other readers , I kept it short. You took my brevity as superficial, but clearly didn't understand my aim. It appears that you are too busy looking for holes in my argument rather than a little self reflection. I know that your world would be over if perhaps your precious institution is, well, totally backwards and wrong.

    And yes, I waited to mention Jesus till the end, but that wasn't good enough? I alert you, sometimes writers save their strongest point for the end in an effort for punctuation. I know, punctuation is lost on you, so I'll stop there.

    But Neighbor, what is most laughable is that you claim MH promotes themselves as friendly. I don't think that you could have said anything further from the truth. Are there exceptions? Absolutely. But the leader dictates the tone, and Mark certainly doesn't offer an air of friendliness or tolerance....I don't think I need to make any reference. He claims himself that he is gruff and brash, and I don't think he's out to make a million friends - as a matter of fact he prides himself for offending others often.

    Why I said it is a waste of my response is that you aren't open minded enough to see anything further than what your tightly wound community will allow you to believe. However, I do appreciate the fact that you are reading things outside of the church newsletters. I hope that soon your mind too will follow. It's not that bad of a world out there, and if you just take five seconds to think about it, you might see that it's rather beautiful. God doesn't want us to live our lives kicking ourselves in the face everyday; dwelling on depravity is not the point of love and grace. Dwell on hope and peace, and maybe you'll see that what I'm writing isn't so bad. (Though a bit too accusatory and poignient, but I'm not sorry.)

    My point in these posts isn't to blaspheme Jesus or make people like you feel bad. I know you have an overwhelming fear that if you don't reply and attack people like me the sky will fall and Jesus will start eating babies. But the truth is, Jesus doesn't need you as a bodyguard. Relax - if you have faith and you're happy, don't worry so much about it. Focus on positive things and by your happy example, maybe others will want to know why you have some goofy smile on your face all the time. Maybe then they'll want to get to know your god. Maybe not. But at least you'll be happy AND you won't annoy everyone with your haughty pride.
  • Stu
    If it weren't so overweening and full of fallacies I'd felicitate what you said.



    And talk about a late comeback...
  • BlackSheep
    Another beautiful post, Bella. Well said.
  • Doc
    anyway we can get a "return to top" option at the bottom of these 100+ comment posts?
  • Zeus
    It doesn't make logical "sense" to not believe in some sort of higher being.
  • Swede'N'Need
    Jeebus will save!
  • Tess
    I went to Mars Hill for a year, then a Mars Hill plant for another year.

    I thought it was great at first...but then I started to LISTEN. Yep. Women really need to keep their eyes on the ball and not waste time at college...after all babies are the goal. I believe I heard Driscoll say once that all a man needs is Forty in one hand and a naked woman in the other. Nice. Plus, I don't even want to get started on the comments about Catholics I heard at the plant. This is absolutely a masoganistic personality cult. STAY AWAY LADIES. WE HAVEN'T FOUGHT THIS HARD TO GO BACK IN TIME.
  • Bdouble
    Hey Tess,
    I'm not a woman, but I know exactly what you mean: It seems nice at first, then once you start to get past the superficial stuff (lights, music, laid back attire, etc) and start to LISTEN, it is actually scary that people eat this stuff up, especially women. I'm sorry to the ladies that actually still go to church here, but no matter how many ways you slice it, this belief system at Mars Hill is set up to keep the women as inferior to men. To deny this, is ignorance.
    Their comments toward the Catholics, well, thats a whole other thing. I'll just say that I think that it's funny when you have someone from one group totally making fun of another's fairly tale belief, as if their fairy tale becomes more valid. It's all Bronze Age nonsense, but hey, believe what you want, just keep it to yourself and to others that believe the same stuff. Peace!
  • steve
    lol at both of you
  • Stu
    C'mon Chris and Thomas....I'm waiting for an awesome comment detailing in how I'm wrong on property taxes...oh wait I'm not :(
  • Chris
    Stu - I haven't responded because I don't know what the f... your point is. I'm no constitutional expert but the first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." What does that have to do with taxes? All I'm saying is that I think churches should follow the same application process that charitable organizations follow to gain tax free status. Show how much they are bringing in and what they are doing with those funds, if they are making a profit then pay taxes. If you don't think they are a for profit deal then you are truly delusional. Oh wait, you go to Mars Hill what should I expect.
  • Stu
    If MH, or any other church, payed taxes they would be directly abridging the seperation of church-and-state, hence if churches payed taxes it would be unconstitutional. Do some homework before you think you have a point you tard. Oh and if you had read the other comments you'd realize I don't go to MH or any other church for that matter, so good job not making yourself look like a total joke.

    P.S. If you're getting tired of copying and pasting all of your wordage you should use crtl+c and ctrl+v it's a nifty little shortcut and saves a lot of time!
  • Chris
    Oh enlighten me...how does paying taxes disrespect the establishment of religion? Does paying a few percent of a multi million dollar property prohibit the exercise of MH? Is it fair that churches, ANY church for that matter have the right to purchase some of the most valuable property in our neighborhood and keep that tax revenue out of our community? And don't get me started on churches respecting the separation of church and state after what the mormons did in california. Oh and I only copied the first amendment in my comment because I wasn't sure if you read it douche bag. Ha, it took 133 comments to get a douche bag.

    Fin.
  • Max
    Stuuuu man...calling someone an idiot enough times does not mean you win the argument. Something other than your superficial right wing talking points might.
  • BlackSheep
    "Ha, it took 133 comments to get a douche bag."

    Untrue - Boardbrown contributed @ #16.
  • Stu
    Wow am I really coming off as a right-wing conservative? I just believe churches and other religious institutions should deserve a little credit (though I'm not opposed to direct scrutinization). I guess I should have stopped campaign organizing for Governor Gregoire and focused on verbalizing my left-leaning political beliefs, but I appreciate the effort Max. On a lighter note, I wasn't very clear in my point, Chris, and I apologize. Let's see...

    If the government begins taxing religious institutions then what is going to stop them from breaking the free exercise of religion i.e. pastors can say this, not that; you can only worship like this, not that; you can only act like this, not that. Not to break away from my ideology, but government "interference" with churches I believe, can only be a bad thing and cause further damage to a institution that at least I highly regard. Now, if a church breaks the laws already in place by the government, such as endorsing a political figure, or illegally handling its funds then I believe there should be immediate action in the form of taxes because the church has breached its purpose. As far as I'm concerned, I say let those "crazy christians" do as they will as long as it doesn't hurt/damage me or my family. I also believe (well, I actually know this) that Driscoll does a very fine job NOT to get politically involved. His purpose (and this has been up for dispute on this blog) is to teach the bible. That's just my opinion though.

    Max, for the record I called BH an idiot because he said something reminiscent of an idiot. He later apologized for his comment. Can people read the comments before they make idiot assumptions!?!??!
  • Bella
    Let's refrain from calling anyone an idiot. Ad hominem arguments are always fallacious.
  • Stu
    Sorry Bella, I'm not quite the wordsmith as you are. Maybe in my next post I'll hide my insults with phrases like "incapable of understanding" and "you are'nt open-minded enough".

    Besides, I covered the substance part of my rebuttle and moreover, I didn't even start the insulting.
  • Chris
    Thanks for focusing on your argument rather than throwing insults this time. I kind of get what your point is now. However I believe the 1st amendment was also written with the intention of protecting the state from religion (something about state sponsored religions in Europe and hundreds of years of wars). I think religion has over stepped this boundary, the religious right as a voting block says it all.
    I think your statement about "illegally handling its funds" is where the heart of my argument was way back before the 1st amendment got tossed in. We don't know anything about the money, how much they are bringing in and what they are using it for, we do for non profits because they still file with the government. Hence the uproar over your comment about criticizing the red cross or cancer societies along with churches.

    By the way, at your request I reread your earlier comments. You seem to know a lot about what MH is about and defend them with vigor so you must understand my confusion that you are a member there. Do you follow them out of sick curiosity? I'm like that with the mormoms, but I don't ever ever defend them.
  • Stu
    I'm still very skeptical of taxation on religious institutions in general though even if some statutes were broken within the church because I don't think its fair to tax the congregation twofold. What I mean is that members of the church already pay taxes, and if the offering plate is taxed on top of that then essentially the member is being taxed again. Do you follow? I'm not sure if I worded that correctly.

    The truth is, though, barely any churches are on the same scale as MH. Many religious institutions are barely able to make funds from month to month for the necessities like electricity and heating. Taxation would surely collapse a whole lot of churches and would thus be breaking the seperation of church-and-state.

    I understand your reservations about how "fair" MH may be conerning financial management and their true motivation as a big church (I don't think they've reached "mega" status yet). That though is something we could argue for days and not get anywhere. I still hold that taxation on churches is a bad thing because they do help people. By that I mean food drives, gift-give-aways, and many other things that are beneficial to the community (and yes MH does put these on).

    I was a regular attendee back in early 2000 and have since stopped going to church except some few occasions. Truth is I like Driscoll. I think he's a powerful motivator and speaker and for the most part, on point. The thing that's disheartening is that many of his statements are taken out of context because for the most part, Driscoll is pretty light-hearted.

    Mormons are another story haha. They were/are pretty much a cultish faction.
  • Chris
    Being employed I pay income tax, being a home owner I pay property tax. When I buy my groceries I pay sales tax, my grocery store then pays income tax and property taxes. Am I being quadruple taxed?

    My point is that churches should be treated the same as charitable organizations, submit a return and those that are making a huge profit should pay up. Not the little ones barely making it.

    Obviously we could argue this until the cows come home but I promised my husband I would stop and being the good little wife I am...
  • Crappy Shit
    farting stupid if you ask anyone
  • Stu
    Everyone pays those taxes. I shouldn't be taxed if I choose to worship or practice a religion. Taxation on a religous institution is a government sponsored incentive to NOT go to church, and thus, breaking seperation of church-and-state.
  • This is worth checking out: Mark Driscoll Sermon Archive
  • Ted S.
    Randy Meeker said: "The portrayal of Mark as some kind of dictator simply isn’t true. He has one vote among 20+ people that make the decisions."

    That may have been true prior to 2008, before the church bylaws were changed. It's not true anymore.

    http://prayingheart.wordpress.com

    .
  • Ma Kettle
    Mmmm, smells all Jim Jones-y.

    (And spin all ya want, but real men aren't so pants-pissing petrified of women that they have to try to drag them back into the Dark Ages.)
  • TKat
    MHC is fueled by lost souls and driven by self proclaimed prophet Marc Driscoll. This man is mad with power, just ask the elders that he dismissed not too long ago for not agreeing with his direction. The message of this church is hate-hate gays, hate lesbians, hate minorities. This is all under the guise of a loving god. The hypocrisy here is that they preach that the god they worship is perfect, but some of the people (homosexuals and minorities) that god created are abominations. Until they give up their homosexual thinking or change the color of their skin, these abominations continue to live in sin. My belief is that Driscoll will go down in a ball of flames when he is indicted in the next 5 years on tax and real estate fraud. Those members that he gives the boot to will become willing witnesses to federal investigators. All this foolishness over religion. "There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.
  • nik
    I realize this thread is almost dead, but I have to get in here.

    Stu says:
    Everyone pays those taxes. I shouldn’t be taxed if I choose to worship or practice a religion. Taxation on a religous institution is a government sponsored incentive to NOT go to church, and thus, breaking seperation of church-and-state.
    --

    I'm not sure I follow your logic here. Everyone pays those taxes -- yeah, so why don't churches then? Explain to me the reasoning behind your statement that taxes on religion would be "government sponsored incentive to NOT go to church."
  • Stu
    Nik,

    Chris had argued that if we pay sales taxes on groceries than the church should pay real estate tax. "Everyone pays those taxes" is in reference to sales tax and every other tax that the American people pay for. If we add a tax reform law that forces religous institutions to pay taxes, that in turn is creating an incentive to NOT go to church which is against the first amendmend.

    (Taxation on church means members have to give more to keep church alive. I don't know how more clear I can be)

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