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‘Market Street Landing’ makes progress with board

Posted by Geeky Swedes on January 26th, 2009

Rhapsody Partners and architect Arthur Chang presented the latest proposal for Market Street Landing to the Design Review Board on Monday night. The condo-retail complex is slated for the old Denny’s site at 15th and Market.

Last time Chang presented his design plans to the board, a member called it a “sprawling octopus.” This time, the board said it applauded many of the changes, but a couple members said the lack of diversity in building materials still made the project “feel big.” The building is large by Ballard standards: it tops out at eight stories in height with 287 condo units, 32,850 sq. ft. of retail space and 445 parking stalls over three underground floors.

One of the design changes is the corner tower on 15th and Market — which would be illuminated at night. Chang had said he gathered inspiration for the design from the Old Ballard City Hall along with a lighthouse. One board member said the tower still needed some work.

This aerial view illustrates the large private rooftop garden area. A board member mentioned the project needed some kind of public space because “the public deserves something” for a project in such a central place.

Overall, the board said the Market Street Landing design had “a lot of great elements” but that Rhapsody and Chang should make some changes and “probably plan on another round” with the board. A member of the audience declared that the project “doesn’t say Ballard at all” and “doesn’t speak to the neighborhood” — a common theme among supporters of the old Denny’s building, once Manning’s Cafeteria, that was designated a landmark and demolished to make room for the Market Street Landing project. Yet despite all the previous controversy, only a dozen or so people attended tonight’s meeting. For Rhapsody, which appears to be making progress with getting design approval, the next hurdle is finding financing for the project — which is currently unfunded in the middle of a recession.

Plus: See the entire design presentation (large .pdf file)

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  • Stephanie Rogstad
    According to the January 28, 2009 issue of the Ballard News, Market Street Landing is on hold. In fact it may never b e built. Ballard is stuck with a scar. This property only accumulates garbage and graffiti. Benaroya owns the property and should be held accountable for keeping it clean and safe until they figure out what to do. Just think, Denny's and the other businesses on that site could have been operating, jobs saved, services delivered.
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  • Anthony
    "Sure, who’s paying? You?"

    Absolutely :)
  • Bark more, wag less
    "How about something more community oriented?"

    Sure, who's paying? You?
  • Ballardlove
    Well the problem with more community oriented buildings is that they aren't as profitable as a mixed use condo/retail building and that is no one's fault except consumers as a whole. If no one bought condos no one would be building them. And if bowling alleys were the most profitable thing you could build/run then we would have a bowling alley on every corner.

    Everyone seems to blame the developer for being greedy but it's a two way street. If the former land owner of the sunset bowl block wouldn't have sold to the developer than the building wouldn't be demolished and condos wouldn't be built.
  • jm
    Perhaps the teens could start picking up the trash they toss out near the high school on 65th.
  • Joshua
    Loss of activities for teens is going to be an increasing problem as more and more start lurking around with baseball bats (see previous stories on this site). I'm pretty agnostic about the Dennys thing, but getting rid of places where people of different ages can be together that don't cost much money is a real long term problem for any city.
  • Anthony
    How about something more community oriented? Denny's and Sunset Bowl were those things despite what you may think of a corporate greesy spoon or bowling, not some overpriced condo's. I understand they may not be some fancy wine bar or what have you but atleast it benefited more than one group of people in the neighborhood.
  • Hostess
    Anthony, what's wrong with catering to one specific class? Everything can't be about YOU, you know. If there's a market for this, great for them, go ahead and build it.
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  • Anthony
    I miss the Denny's, very sad what Ballard has become. I'm fine with some of the new businesses (Snooze Junction Pizza) but this? Only caters to one specific class of people who can afford to live in such a monstrosity. I've been born and raised in Seattle and the city leaders need to bring back the height restrictions for neighborhood's so this crap can end, ofcourse I'm sure the developers are keeping their pocket's quite fat.
  • m
    jeez - tough crowd...............
  • Maria
    "Eat all you want and still lose weight" We can't say it on TV if it isn’t true! Right Joey?

    Recall a building downtown (can’t remember the name)that was touted as 100% SOLD but when it was finished it went to rentals since every single buyer backed out.

    Joey never believe a single thing a realtor tells you unless he or she is someone who likes you enough that they would give you a kidney.
  • Ballardlove
    Joey,
    Realtors especially in the condo industry lie all the time about how many condos are sold. I used to work in the condo industry and I saw agents "fudging" on their sales board by adding a few more solds up there than there really were.

    When ever I see a "Now X % sold" I estimate that they are inflating the truth by 5-10%.

    And I was thinking of buying a unit at Hjarta 2-ish years ago and the agent there lied to my face on more than one occasion when I asked him directly how many were sold. He didn't know that I had access to some good information.
  • Kate
    I think it looks pretty good. I hated the Denny's. I like the rooftop garden that give the people in the higher building something nice to look at aside from torchdown. The tower is fine; it would look like a prison tower if it's higher (like the prison tower on Whittier Elementary).
  • Joshua
    Regarding Canal station selling, isn't it a slightly unusual case since it bills itselfs as a condos for retirees?

    As for the new building, I think the market is correcting itself as we speak. Would you or anyone you know invest in a condo in Ballard right now? The downside is, since we don't have proper regulations regarding empty lots, this lot is just going to sit abandonned for the next few years. Gathering garbage and bums.
  • jm
    Why Carl?
  • Carl Hungus
    Its going to suck so bad.
    Enough massive expansion in Ballard.
  • Joey
    So what? They can't lie about the number of units they have sold.
  • Maria
    Joey that was an ad paid for by the realtors selling the units. The whole section that carried that article is paid for advertising. Look at the top of the page.
  • Joey
    I read it in this past Saturdays Times. Something like 20 units sold last month alone.

    I don't feel like looking it up.
  • jm
    One does wonder when all the new residents are going to arrive with their money. Look at all the new units on Denny Way between Fairview and 5th Ave. Wow.
  • Maria
    Families can be raised in condos. Generations of New Yorkers have been raised in condos and apartments. I understand this is not New York but this is a city and it is growing everyday and becoming more cosmopolitan. If you need the patch of green there are lots of options other than living in a city. I choose to live here because I love city living. Not everyone does of course.
  • jules
    maria:
    funny. have a nice evening.
  • Iggs
    jm,

    I can appreciate that the space is being used, but I question the need so many more apartments/condos especially of this size in ballard so close together. Sure you can say more retail will be added, but not as easily accessible. All the new development makes it less attractive for area families come down to Market Street.

    I also note that the entrance to the parking garage is located extremely close to the intersection. With such a large complex this will effectivly shut down this lane in the morning and evenings with cars in transit.
  • jm
    The new buildings are replacing vacant rundown commercial properties. No single family residences are being torn down for the new apartments.
  • Iggs
    I have lived in Ballard now about 10 years. I have to admit at first I was excited about all the changes. The new library, the park, new stores, even some of the new condos. That being said, boy are we over doing it. I have never paid much attention to this building project, and can't say I was overly sad to see the Denny's building go away. I knew something would replace it, but I just never figured it would be something so big. Market Street is turning into the Ballard Canyon. I don't fault the designers, but I don't believe our board has Ballard's best interest anymore. We are catering to the short term occupant and losing our family neighborhood. We've lost the balance that made Ballard such an inviting place. What good are we doing if we chase away all the long term businesses and all we have left in Ballard are bars and restaurants. It won't be the place you want to raise a family anymore, but rather just a place to visit.

    I blame myself for not paying more attention. I see the board has asked the designers to come back one more time. If we're smart we'll all show up this time. We may not be able to stop it, but at least I will find out who not to vote for next election. Here's hoping they don't find the funding.
  • tired
    John:
    Sure, if I've got $400k to spend I'd love for someone to give me another $150-$200k. But way back when, my parents make sure that I learned the difference between what you want and what you get. Money (and loans) don't exactly grow on trees.
  • Maria
    There are just some angry people out there is all jules. I always assume I remind them of their hated mother. : )
  • jules
    i dig folks that are combative with reasons and facts to back them up ! bring it on.....

    i just think that folks got pretty fired up and rude yesterday afternoon regarding the sushi post. there are many things i want to say very often but try to keep it nice.

    i just really like this blog and don't want people to start to see it as just a place people moan and complain.

    believe me, there are SEVERAL topics that i get fired up about but i try to make it topic related--not an attack on the person themself!
  • Maria
    Sorry I'm so combative on this blog, but I just can't help it.

    Ignore me.
  • Maria
    I find the design unattractive but then the whole corner has been pretty unattractive for years so it’s really no worse and more housing built in this eco0nomy does mean prices will continue down.

    “Canal Station is the fastest selling project in the city right now” What do you have to back that Joey? I had a realtor tell me that 60% of the occupied units are rentals held by the developer. Just his word of course since most units are kept off the MSL.

    John having spent the better part of my youth helping lug groceries up two flights to a great old Ballard Tudor I would relish en elevator and an underground garage.
  • boardbrown
    Sheila has a great point. Apartments make more sense than condos for that corner. I think the novelty of living in that building would wear off long before those units are paid off. I predict alot of turn over.
  • EveryMoe
    What's not to like? More housing = lower prices. More density = better transit options and more support for local business. It's not a work of art, but show me a giant block of apartments that is.
  • Sheila
    If they can't sell them as condos, they will most likely rent them out. Not everyone wants to own a house.
  • trizzle
    I am in agreement about the public transit. I am not against condos, just against rediculous congestion~
    Also, there are some vacant retail spaces. With more opening on 24th next to noma (which isn't full) and in Canal Station. With the rent these places charge, I can understand why.
  • Ballardlove
    John- Obviously the condo life is not for everyone and no one is making you live in a condo if you don't want to. For some condo's are a great alternative to the time consuming effort of owning a detached home. As a young professional with a busy social life I would find it difficult to make time to mow a lawn, clean gutters etc. Eventually I will probably own a house but for now a condo is what suits my lifestyle.

    Elevators and single levels make condo living easy on retirees and the elderly as well. Not to mention that retirees who like to travel can leave their condo for long periods of time without having to get a house sitter or worry about much.

    Condos can make sense for a lot of people.
  • BlackSheep
    Boardbrown, this is completely off topic, but thanks to you and your wife for staying home when she has something that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

    I wasn't at the meeting, but I work with the public, and am amazed at how many people don't seem to think that they could maybe stay home until they aren't coughing and sneezing on everyone around them.
  • Cyclocrossmechanic
    I have mixed feelings. I like the idea of condos because high density housing is needed if you want to achieve a truly livable, walkable city.

    On the other hand, high density housing is just one component of such a city and an equally important part is timely and efficient public transit which this town sorely lacks. Basically you're going to take a space that had zero residents and zero cars and suddenly fill it with hundreds of people and 400+ cars. The streets won't be any wider so it's just going to be that much more congestion including more delays for our bus-only public transit. In the short term that's not good. Given Seattle's startling inability to complete public transit projects I'm not very optimistic about the long term prospects.

    Visually it's pretty uninspiring but then again so is most new housing (and a lot of old housing for that matter!)
  • Joshua
    I'm assuming that this building is going to be mixed use. Did anyone ask what the commercial areas were built for? Personally I'd like it if at least one of the spaces was built for a resturant. could someone please ask at the next review meeting (I'm spending my meeting time trying to make sure my kids can go to Ballard High-school even though I have the gall of living on 70th).
  • Jane
    Well there John, if I lived on 15th and Market, I would walk up the street to the Ballard Market and buy only what I could carry home. After I dropped off the groceries I would walk to Monkey Bridge and have dinner. Then I would go to Portalis for a glass of wine. Then I would head over to the Tractor to fill my head with music. Then I woud walk back home. Then I would admire my slender figure in my full length mirror because I wlak everywhere and don't stuff my gulliver full of groceries. Then I would invite my neighbors from the hallway in for a nightcap...and make friends, like those crazy college kids.
  • Ballard Girl
    I think it looks great. I have lived in Ballard my whole life and I always though the Denny's was heinous looking so I'm glad for the new planned building. I know there are a lot of older people in Ballard that hate the condos but that is the life cycle of a city. Without the condos a lot of people couldn't afford to live in Ballard. With more people comes more business, new restaurants and new shops. Ballard needed refreshing. When I was a kid you never went into "downtown" Ballard because there was nothing there but a hardware store and smoky bars. If all this new development didn't come in Ballard would be nothing but old people and run down buildings.

    Obviously this project is not going to be built for a few years (just getting approval is going to take a while). And the market will hopefully be better when this actually does come online so I think the Ballard scene will be ready for some new inventory by then.

    Let's just have a good attitude about the changes in Ballard because the only thing constant in life is change! So get used to it :)
  • boardbrown
    Nina, your not alone. A lot of folks think it's ugly.
  • John
    "Ownership, proximity to downtown, and living in a great neighborhood."

    All I know if that if I'm laying down $400,000 ... I would never put myself in that situation. You can't control who your neighbors are (no matter where you live), but at the same time you have to share all of your walls with these people. There is no separation from people. Then... the little things, like, buying a huge round of groceries... parking... then lugging said groceries god knows how far and up how many stories.. back down a hallway. into your condo. and god forbid if you have to make 2 trips back to your car.

    I don't know... after living in several different buildings not in Seattle and having to do shit like that with groceries, etc etc. I would prefer to never do that again. If you're gonna blow $400k on a one bedroom condo, I'd rather go ahead and lay down another $150-$200k for my own house... sure, I'd have many more years on paying mortgages, but to me I'd rather do that than be pissed off every time I had to hike 3.5 miles through hallways just to get to my car.
  • Joey
    "I don’t understand who is buying these condos? (and why?) Who would pay $350,000+ for what is essentially a one bedroom unit in a big new college dorm building?"

    Ownership, proximity to downtown, and living in a great neighborhood.
  • I would *love* to see something in this spot. I wish they could find funding sooner. If that is what we get, fine I can deal. I do find it ugly though. I am allowed. :)
  • John
    I don't understand who is buying these condos? (and why?) Who would pay $350,000+ for what is essentially a one bedroom unit in a big new college dorm building?
  • Joey
    Canal Station is the fastest selling project in the city right now. Hope this helps.
  • boardbrown
    It's getting there, but it still needs more improvement. I'm glad to hear there will be another round of discussion, 'cause I was torn up about missing the meeting last night...thanks to the nasty flu bug my wife is fighting right now. It's something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

    Pray that you don't get what she's got!
  • clamster
    Why don't they just call it the "Market Street Pen"? Or the "Ballard Slammer"? I'm not sure how they can even use the word, "inspired" to describe this thing. It's like telling someone that the lowest quality hamburger in the lowest quality bun they just found in the trash was "inspired by" (and therefore similar to and deserving of credits and kudos) to an expertly made filet mignon or prime rib from Julia Child's kitchen. (Yes, I know she passed away a few years ago.) I'm not opposed to condos as long as they are sized appropriately for the lot they are on and are at least decently designed on the outside with some consideration to the locale. There are plenty of cookie-cutter designs that are way better than this.
  • jules
    i know that they are offering reduced rents right now to get folks into these new condos such as Noma, Canal Station, etc...it IS worrisome.

    Maybe the developers know of a "everyone move to ballard" plot that we don't!! (just joking)...
  • Bella
    "This aerial view illustrates the large private rooftop garden area. A board member mentioned the project needed some kind of public space because “the public deserves something” for a project in such a central place."

    I think this is a good idea....but how can this be accomplished? I don't think I could see myself hanging in a public park surrounded by, at most, 8 story private condos. Thoughts?

    I don't think the design is terrible and I'm glad progress is being made (save for funding).

    But I agree about the guard tower......haha.
  • Tracy
    So...who's going to buy the condos? Aren't there a bunch of empty ones at noma, canal station, etc? 287 units seems like a lot in an already flooded market. Also, there is already a ton of empty unleased retail space under the already constructed condo buildings. Does this worry anyone else? Maybe the developers need to take a break.
  • puggles
    Did he get funding? I didn't think he had $ to build?

    I'd rather see this go up then keep driving by the vacant lots that currently occupy the space.

    I have to agree that this drawing makes the building look huuuuge - I can't picture it fitting, unless its much more narrow than the drawing makes it look, but I like the concept.
  • jules
    gurple:
    the roller coaster is the best idea yet!
  • trizzle
    I agree that the tower needs to be one story taller than the rest of the building. I also think some planting strips of some sort at street level would be nice. Canal station has a few at their main entrance, and it helps to break up the building. Otherwise it is better than the vacant lot that a lot of the drunks are hanging around. I have seen the medics have to cross market to attend to a injury when one fell, and a car almost hit someone when they walked off the curb. I don't know why they aren't hanging out at the parks.
  • Frantic Freddie
    I love it!

    Hopefully they can start building soon, giving people good paying construction jobs that we need here in Ballard. Who would be against that?
  • jules
    sheila:
    i do too!

    i agree with all of the positive comments here. i just am so tired of all of these negative, people bashing comments. This is such an excellent blog for our neighborhoods that it is just sad to see it get tainted by a few who really want to do nothing but complain.

    A community blog like this really should be just that--and sadly this one seems to be getting away from the facts and throwing some pretty lame blame.

    there is a huge difference between discussing differing opinions and just being rude.
  • Sheila
    I think they made some great improvements.
  • jules
    silencekit:
    aren't you leaving ballard soon anyway? you told everyone the other day how much you dislike it here so why in the world do you feel compelled to continue to argue and talk ballard when its only a matter of time when you leave anyway.

    i hear bellevue has places to live....
  • elle
    oh and mickey, you going to the meeting wouldnt have satisfied me. i would get much more satisfaction from a respectful conversation about our differing opinions.
  • elle
    mickey- you seem a bit defensive. did you go to the meeting? that is all i asked. i dont get the anger.

    i wasnt offensive to you or your opinion i just expressed my frustration about negativity about the neighborhood on this blog when it seems (as evidence by the amount of people who attended the meeting) that very few people actually do anything about it.

    i appreciate that you are active in the community. i think that is more helpful then trashing potential components of it via a blog.
  • jm
    Seems like the old Ballard dissenters should have been complaining about the town homes that have sprouted in the neighborhoods. These larger developments are adding living space to formerly run down commercial properties. If you want old Ballard, then move to Aberdeen Washington.
  • mickey
    elle -

    Oh, sorry, I guess I was supposed to change my schedule to make it to the meeting in order to satisfy you.

    Get a freaking clue.

    You don't know the first thing about me so don't make ignorant assumptions about people and how much they participate in their community. I'm one of the MOST active people in my neighborhood/community, and have been for the last seven years.

    Take your assumptions and put them in a hole in the ground, because that's all they are worth.

    I reiterate:
    The condo building is too big for the plot of land. It is a monstrosity.
  • bmvaughn
    I really quite like the design. Welcome to Ballard, and I hope you get funding!
  • m
    Zipper, jm & Joey - thank you !
  • gurple
    They might as well add a moat, a roller coaster, and a steel mill to the design, because the thing isn't going to get funded any time soon, anyway.
  • silence.kit
    I'd rather them build up than make it so sprawling.
  • Joey
    Its taller on one side because the rooftop garden/park is on the shorter side.
  • Joey
    There is nothing this developer could do to please the dissenters. Even if this was the most amazingly designed building ever conceived, it would still be "ugly" and "crap" etc etc etc because its a condo building being built by a developer. Those are the two most evil forces on earth, you know.
  • jm
    Why all the negativity? This project looks like a huge improvement to a busy intersection that currently features two gas stations and a drive thru drug store. I’d imagine the availability of more housing units may hold down the price of existing single-family dwellings in Ballard.
  • Evan
    Thanks Zipper -your comment is like a ray of sunshine in what can be a sea of grumply old man comments.

    The design is starting to respond to its site - but it really needs help in the tower and material expression. That should be handled in the next meeting with the board. It is weird that it is taller on the W side.
  • Zipper
    I agree Elle. Blogs tend to be echo chambers where the same people make the same complaints. Sadly this is turning into one of those.

    I too did not go to the meeting, but I have no problem with the project. it will be wonderful to see more folks in our hood. People want to live in Ballard. Let them. Maybe some of them will care, get involved and bring positive energy and positive change to our corner of the world.
  • silence.kit
    Why does it have to "fit in" with the other ugly condos near that corner? What can't they do something, well, interesting?
  • busdrivermike
    "The Great Wall of Ballard"

    Trademark pending.
  • elle
    i hate to call people out but i just dont see the point in continuously trashing the neighborhood and not doing a damn thing about what you supposedly dislike.
  • elle
    everyone complains but who went to the meeting? a dozen people?! did nina, tom, crappy shit, nordic woman or mickey go?
  • philk
    It looks like a maximum security prison because it has a corner turret that looks quite like a guard tower. More photos of guard towers at: http://images.google.com/images?q=guard%20tower
  • Tom
    I say it every week: Ballard is turning into crap.

    Hang the scumbags responsible for this monster eyesore and let the crows get them.
  • Ben
    Does anyone else find it odd that the portion of the building facing 15th is shorter? 15th is a wide street, it could handle some height. Also, the tower would look much better if it could rise above the rest of the building on that corner. The board should allow for this.
  • Nordic Woman
    Why does this look like a maximum security prison?
  • Crappy Shit
    I was here before all this stupid shit. If ever there was a time, FREE BALLARD.
  • mickey
    What a monstrosity.
  • Well, that is ugly.
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